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Why I don’t believe in “Church”

Submitted by JoshuaDbauIII on March 7, 2010 – 8:20 pmView Comments
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By ‘Church” I mean these segregated meeting halls ‘followers’ of Jesus attend for worship and a pep talk once or twice a week. I have almost completely lost my faith in their ability not only to change the world, but to impact their communities in the sorts of profound ways we read about in the New Testament or in any significant way for that matter. I cannot see in these lavish, over-produced, inauthentic temples of false hope the power and pathos that can be found in the history of the early church and many movements around the world where dedicated followers of Christ live in solidarity with the oppressed, poor and marginalized of our societies. I will here share 5 realizations I have had regarding our Sunday fragmentation’s that strike me as relevant to this post.

1. Appearance and Performance: We parade ourselves before one another without the ability to speak to one another, we are there to watch and listen, not to participate. A glorified sporting event where we are nothing but spectators despite what we might like to claim as “feeling it”. How can one actively participate in a church service anymore than one could actively participate while watching tv at home? We are not invited into the inner-circle or decision making when there are clear separations between those in charge and those who come to watch. We come to watch and agree with a band and then a pastor who perform their act, and we are entertained and possibly even moved a little. But we are not moved to lasting change, we cannot ask questions that are applicable to our own personal lives, or push back to what the performers have done, they could not possibly have any sort of interaction with each individual present at the function. We are there to bolster our own appearance to the community and to watch their performance from our seats without changing our communities or being changed ourselves.

2. Centralization of Power: How could one possibly speak for the whole? Instead of effecting change through engaging in community speech acts of mutual dialogue, a congregation tacitly consents, by their very attendance, to giving up their voice to another. And it is by giving up our voices that we also give up our participation and our quest for lasting transformation.

3. Waste of Resources: We come together in buildings that need not be constructed for the church to exist. We squander the resources God has entrusted and blessed us with not for the building of a more just and peaceful world, but for the building of more beautiful temples to be entertained in. We have the very finest sound machines, the newest electric gadgets and useless doohickeys that amplify only our entertainment, they cannot give life.

We drive our SUVs from all over to hear a pastor whom we already agree with and pollute our violated world even more in the process of making ourselves feel better. We over-consume before church as we grab a latte on the way and afterward as we go out and eat at expensive restaurants, both of which cost more than what we decided to tithe in the time between before and after. And to think of all the things we could be doing in our own neighborhoods in that time on Sunday morn. We could mend relationships that started off on the wrong foot so long ago, we could plant a rose garden, we could be known by our love. Maybe rather than locking ourselves in a building on Sunday morn we could try something different next week…just a thought…

4. The Way is Narrow: Apparently Jesus didn’t mean it when He said that the way was narrow and that it would be difficult to be His followers. It is far easier to ignore this statement when we can just to listen to a pastor who is paid to be a Christian for us. A person most often a man that we have no access to, who will only be able to tell us what to think, or speak at us, but who’s words are so general that to critically look at our own existence doesn’t occur to us. Let alone being able to bring oneself before a community for a process of discerning what may not be in line with the teachings of Christ. With all this generality why would we want to get specific with a community of people that we don’t want to know our business, this sounds too hard, too uncomfortable and too boring. Why would we want to look at the ways in which we are currently living that are inconsistent with the Gospel of Christ? If we are not forced to, besides our lives are pretty easy in America, what we want when we want, as always plenty of cheap crap quick, especially from the pulpit.

I spoke to a professed Christian who is involved at his church 2 to 3 times a week about the dangers of ignorance in the ways in which we spend our money. I told him about the reality of sweatshops and the problem of our culture with any sort of responsible sustainable practices that are important for the future. And most of all that it is important for Christians to be aware of where our products come from and the legacy our consumption will leave behind. If we want to stand against oppression in this world with any sort of integrity it is important to be informed about where our material goods come from so that we can avoid the systematic oppression of peoples and the raping of our earth for quick profits.

There are many examples, the oppression of people in sweatshops for cheap jeans, slave labor used to produce chocolate, corporations and governments that take away entire under-privileged communities supplies of water, farmland and so on that are inconsistent with the Gospel of Christ and Christians are called to stand in stark contrast to. He responded to me by saying, “if people want me to act differently and to buy ethically made cloths, food or other products, they need to make it easier and cheap.” I was silent for a little while as I understood that he didn’t give a damn at all, it didn’t matter if little girls lost their eyes or hands in a Disney factory, he would still buy the cheapest crap that looked the coolest because he can. What a shame, if these are the sorts of people our churches of commodity produce, people who don’t care what Jesus said, as long as they look good at a social gathering. For them they are Christian enough, Jesus is just another tool used for hip people to get laid. If it’s too hard, most church people are simply not interested, and they get uncomfortable when you bring into question whether or not it is ethical to buy a diamond that was from a conflict region because it was an unbelievable deal. If you connect the dots it’s no wonder I have almost entirely lost my faith in organized churches and I know many others who have similar inclinations.

5. Entitlement and Self-fulfillment: Our churches reinforce the notion of our individual rights that Christians have to continue living in whatever way they choose, continuing to over-consume, over-pollute, over-simplify and under-question. With our allegiance to our own well being and our own beliefs above those of our communities, our friends, and our God it is no wonder we struggle to remain changed. If our allegiance is to the Kingdom of God our lives must bear fruit. No fruit is born out of feeling good about ourselves and being socially accepted by our fellow parishioners.

How can these sorts of churches possibly show us the Narrow way when by their very constitutions they by necessity must take the broad way. I’m not sure where most churches think they are leading their members, but is seems like they are lost in the wilderness of consumerism, self-importance above all else and fragmentation. If I weren’t already a Christian it would be impossible for these churches with names like substance, where there isn’t any, to dupe me into converting into the sort of mindless consumerism that advocates any form of the unsustainable American dream. These fragmented structures that we spend an hour or two a week in are not the answer, they are incapable of creating a lasting change in their communities when the majority of those in attendance don’t live anywhere near them in the first place.

If the Church fails time and time again to produce disciples among the professed believers, what chance does it have to produce new ones? If the church is being drowned out by the cries for more, bigger, better, newer etc. and even joining in the cry what are we to do? Many simply want what is fashionable no matter the cost. We would step on the heads of our own grandmothers to live our lives in whichever way we feel entitled, but the narrow way of Jesus calls us to renounce our rights, and give up our lives so that we might find the life that is truly life…Thus the dissonance and the reason for my unbelief.

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About JoshuaDbauIII

Joshua David Bau is a Doctor of Ministry Student in social and economic innovation at Bethel Seminary in collusion with Trans4m University in Geneva, Switzerland. He lives in St. Paul with his beautiful wife Gracie. He enjoys long walks on the street, painting and cooking.

  • kasieedmunds
    We need more people like you in the world!
  • We need to change our priorities. Consider looking at purchases through how much labor you expended to buy this. A $20 widget seems cheap until you consider it's about 2-hours of your life to pay for that. And then consider what the maker of said item spent to create the item. A necktie might take 2-hours to make by hand, or half an hour by machine. How much is the laborer's time worth to you? Keeping in mind that they have to use their time to buy other things they need/want.
  • I've been thinking about this subject for awhile... after listening to some Anarchist criticisms of capitalism and commodities. You're comment made a "click" connection, a puzzle piece that has made things a lot clearer. Thank you.
  • Wow, K. J. Your wisdom is fine. As someone said, "A church that admitted only saints would be like a hospital that only admitted healthy people. It would be much easier to run but I'm not sure that it would serve the purpose for which it was built."
  • I like that quote. I don't understand however, what you aimed to accomplish by resorting to name calling in your disagreement with Josh. I understand that what he says can be hard to swallow, but I don't think that makes what he said or has felt any less valid. Your kind of defensiveness is exactly the type of loveless response that hurts us all. The Church is not perfect, and it won't be for a very long time, and that small fact alone should make us a little more humble, a little more receptive to criticism and critiques.
  • MC Fischer
    Agree or disagree with this editorial, he is not alone in this thinking. I love the church, love it so much that I am in tears about the nature of the conversations on homosexuality in my church. (ELCA) I see both sides, and I hear the anger betrayal and sadness on both sides. I know what my heart says but at the end of the day, I can not say with any definity that either side is wrong. WE have spent so much money on this question. Our focus is off the saving grace of Jesus and helping the poor. I can only imagine Jesus seeing the state of ur church and either throwing the tables around or weeping with utter despair.
  • Have hope, compassion and grace on the Church. I'm younger than you and I've had my share of bitter experiences. I am disenchanted with my peers: my brothers and sisters who misrepresent Christ. Churches are FILLED with sinners who are ignorant to their shortcomings and faults. But we must trust God to work in their lives and in their shortcomings as we trust Him to work in our own lives with our own shortcomings.

    St Augustine I believe said, "The Church is a whore, but she's also my mother." And we must remember that the Church is the bride of Christ. I've been repeatedly shown again and again that God works in ways that I can't possibly imagine and uses the small and the weak...people who fill many many Churches in many many different denominations and areas. We must push and challenge the Church to return to Christ: to reject what is false and wrong and unjust. But we must remain humble and full of grace, rejecting bitternes and false superiority—for we too are undoubtedly blind to our own failures. PLEASE keep speaking truth, but guard your words with love and grace. You may not have hope in the Church, but I would invite you to have hope that God can work in the Church, whom He has entrusted with His good news.
  • Just to set the record straight, This supposed quote of St. Augustine is not from him!
    Tony Campolo said it in the 2008 movie/documentary by Dan Merchant, but when I searched all of Augustine's writings through a searchable database program, it never showed up.
    St. Augustine loved the Church as the bride of Christ and would not refer to it as such.
  • That is right on KJ. Thanks for posting!
  • iquanyin
    amen!
  • we have a long tradition... that tradition is around because people have done and continue the work to sustain it. it's hard to be both revolutionary and sustainable yet i believe that God can use the Church to transform people. is there shallowness? yes. are many of your critiques valid? yes. but they aren't new. Kierkegaard, Voltaire, and Erasmus all did it better than you, way before you, without going the route of generalizations that thesauros is right to critique. why not show how harvest theology is damaging? that friendship evangelism is wrong? that growth in church numbers does not constitute spiritual growth?

    run the risk of being specific. i think it would serve you better.
  • mariakirby
    1.Just because you are in the pew does not mean you have to be passive. Worshiping on Sunday morning has to do first of all with your relationship with God. If your focus is on the people around you, even those on the stage, then you have the wrong focus and of course it will be a shallow experience. If you really are in the trenches doing the work of God during the week, then going to a church service on Sunday and resting into the worship that is planned, taking strength to participate from those who surround you, and listening to the voice of God as someone prayerfully opens the scriptures, is not passive or meaningless.

    There are two different kinds of spectators: those who are into the game and those who watch from a dispassionate distance. Passionate spectators are part of the game; it wouldn't be the same without them.

    2.If you have ever listened to a choir, you can understand why one can speak for the whole. There is power in listening to the words of a whole group of people singing with one voice, but when one voice speaks a more detailed message can be more effectively heard. On one level the Christian message is a simple message of love that can be sung or lived by everyone in the choir. However, the day to day living of that message has nuances that can be more clearly understood if communicated by one person. It is similar to how a choir can have a soloist that sings verses more clearly than the choir as a whole. The soloist is part of the choir, and speaks for the choir, and the choir backs up the message of the soloist with the chorus.

    3.Your criticisms of how people chose to go to church and what they do afterwards are valid, but that has nothing to do with making a special place to worship God as a community. Just like it is important to participate in certain rituals such as baptism and communion, it is important to have a special place where we gather as a community to worship God.

    We acknowledge the sacredness of places and objects by setting a portion aside as an offering to God. Our national parks set aside a portion of nature to be preserved for the whole country for all generations. In acknowledging the beauty of the nature preserved in the national parks, we come to appreciate the nature in our own back yards. As we work to beautify a sacred place to worship God, we come to realize that our own homes and our own bodies are his temple as well.

    4.I applaud your bring issues of justice to the consciousness of the Christian community. Please do not get discouraged. Please continue to speak out. But please be careful how you judge. I can testify that in my own life, it has taken a long time for the things that I know I should do to take root in practices of how I live. God gave me a picture of this process showing me that he is a heavenly father who is teaching his child to walk. When I fall down, he is not a parent who says 'stupid, sinful child, why did you loose your balance and fall?', instead he lovingly picks me up, comforts me, then puts me down so I can try again. Some times he holds my hand so I have balance, some times he lets go so I can see if I can take a step on my own.

    How long did individual Christians strive against slavery before the community recognized it as sin? Combating these issues of injustice are getting at the core of people's preservation fears. These fears are very instinctual, and it is only through the grace of God that we can trust him in spite of our fears. While Jesus spoke to crowds of thousands, he only chose twelve disciples, and even one of those betrayed him. If you could convince twelve people to live in a more just way, you would be doing as well as Jesus did.

    5.I agree with you that I find it difficult to live my convictions about a just and sustainable world in a church(es) who do not hold the same values. I know that I would be more consistent, and better able to live out my convictions to the fullest if I was in a community who shared the same convictions. There is a place for gathering together embers to make a fire. There is also a place for being a spark that is sent to new to new territory. Let your love for those who offend you be like ashes on their heads, so that they will grieve along side you in repentance.
  • Chris
    I think there are some valid criticisms of how Americans "do" church, but much of those points don't at all reflect my experience at my current church. In recent years I have come to appreciate the value of belonging to a church body - our service to Christ shouldn't begin, nor end, with the physical church, but it is a great opportunity to develop strong Christian relationships and the inspiration and accountability that go along with genuine relationships.

    I would just caution people to not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
  • jonaslundstrom
    Joshua. I completely agree. I think we should leave the established churches.
  • I don't think you've lost faith in churches. I think you've lost faith in American evangelical 'mega-church' type institutions. I did, too. And then I discovered another Way.

    My Anglo-Catholic ('high' Anglican) church is the opposite of what you describe. There are no expensive sound systems - instead there is the centring of the Mass, the body and blood of the Lord, as an expression of worship, community and love. There is no over-emotional musical experience to get people high on feelings - instead there is a mishmash of out-of-tune, faithfully-sung hymns led by an extremely amateur choir who can't do harmonies, that the angels hear as music to rival their own. Justice and inclusion are both preached and practiced. That means a congregation made up of gay, straight, disabled, non-disabled, black, white, young newly-weds and older people who've been committed to the church for fifty years. It also means we support fair trade products, both by selling them after church (only a small token, but a good example) and encouraging people to consider their consumer habits carefully in relation to the Gospel. Both ordained and lay people preach from the pulpit and serve communion. And democracy is expressed through a parish church council system that is accountable all the way up to Synod - no, it's not perfect, by any means, and it involves far too many committees, but I much prefer that to dictatorship from the front.

    Obviously, 'high' Anglican churches aren't for everyone. But there are many, many churches where the Way of Jesus is practised as well as preached. They can be found. They don't usually shout their existence to the world, by the way - I had to work quite hard to find my current church. But they are there, faithfully preaching the Gospel and living it too.
  • Thanks for giving a counter-example. It is dangerous for us to be aware of all the negative examples (which, after all, get the most press) without also affirming the faithful congregations.

    I'm not sure the thing that makes a church "worthless" is that it is institutional, or established, or meets in a building, etc. I've been to house churches that act pretty damn institutionalized...I've been to intentional communities that are stuck in being established...etc. Forms matter, but they aren't entirely determinative.

    I also am glad you've brought up high-church. I think it is strange that folks somehow link liturgy with a lack of participation or with centralized power. Again, it isn't necessarily the case. In fact, I think many humbly liturgical churches are way more participatory and inclusive than the lowest of low churches.
  • benadamC
    No one expects the problems of the world to be solved on "Sunday morn". We only expect G-d will grant us the strength to act as the people of G-d between Sabbaths on Sabbath. If you want to reform then join a church and reform. If you want to dismantle then join a church and tear faith apart. Until you do, remember everyone starts somewhere, and you could be sitting beside the next radical while singing songs in the pews. Furthermore, you would be good to use Christian ideals rather than American commitments when making your argument against the ecclesial straw man. Peace!
  • A fantastic post to get the brain working!

    I have to say that I once could have agreed with everything you mention but perhaps I'm mellowing with age. Anyway, some quick responses.

    1. I've often thought that sometimes church services seem to be more of a performance, how we seem to split into performers and audience, those who preach doing so because of some unconcious need for an audience.

    2. How should authority be laid out in a church? I'm convinced that a democratic model is not the way to do it. How still remains a question to me.

    3. Resources will always be an issue. Some churches have led the way in my opinion by building for the community, or settling within the structures already in that community.

    4. The way is indeed narrow but how do we square that with diversity and inclusivity?

    5. Overconsumption is not something I have come across in the UK, plenty who would like to ocerconsume maybe, but lack the resources to go down that road!

    Chris
  • Al1
    Thanks, Joshua. While you don't speak for all Christians, you certainly speak for me. I also expect that you speak for a large percentage of people who stay away from Christianity like the plague.

    We can only hope that Christians begin to take their calling of following Christ seriously--into the streets where his love so needs to be expressed.
  • joshuadavidbau
    thanks for the honesty, I find it difficult for Christians to be honest at first but after a relationship is established it seems that trust can be build and things one only thinks can be expressed openly, it's at this time that we find out we are not alone. Blessings brother...

    J
  • johnsob5
    We just had this very conversation over some of those expensive omlets this very morning...

    While you're critiques are very well founded in the actual experience of so many congregations, I think you've thrown the baby out with the bath water. I would that you could have been next to me at church every week when I was a kid in Catholic school.

    As I have moved forward, trying to find and walk that narrow way, I have been increasingly grateful for that formation - that thankfully has continued in vibrant congregations in college and now as a young adult.

    Here are two things (I'll probably think of more later) I think I've gained, that have led me toward and supported me in works of social transformation, that I don't think I could have gotten anywhere else than going to Catholic mass, over, and over, and over.

    1) Liturgical sense: "Liturgy" is the work of the people. A priest once told us if we were doing it right we better be sweating at the end! There were no screens, no worship bands, no fancy gizmos, theater seating, or latte carts in the narthex at church. Especially as a kid, but even now, nothing there was designed to entertain me. There were bells, incense, hymns, ritual and tradition. There were colors and seasons, celebrations and grieving, a pattern. All of my senses were engaged in an experience - mediated and of course only a shadow - of the divine. It was, and is not, "stale". It is like having learned a foreign language at a very young age, one that helps me move into a very countercultural way of looking at the world. To offer a kiss of peace, and really mean it, is one example of the power of liturgical sense. The communities you are speaking of need a good dose of traditional liturgy. Over and over and over...

    2) Ultimate perspective: I am a very VERY tiny part of God's great plan; I AM a part of God's great plan. We didn't have anyone who was "paid" to be a Christian. In fact, in one local community of nuns - to whom my great aunt was vowed - I've come to find out they would have starved it hadn't been for people leaving boxes of apples and wild game on their back porch. These were the nuns working in the school, the parish social ministries, making sure those liturgies happened! Prosperity doctrine is shit. So are weekly pep talks. But church has given me something much greater than than: heroes. Women (mostly women...) and men who, with the free Jesus like giving of their lives, have shown me the narrow way. You might say, "Well, you don't NEED a church for people to act like that." That is objectively true, I suppose. But why, then, are so many churchy types that I know such amazing witnesses? My state legislature, for example, isn't producing them at anywhere the same rate. Nor are the schools. The communities you talk about need to identify and honor such living witnesses, or maybe form and support some new ones...

    I wish for you, and all other followers, some of the good fortune I've had at "church". I do recognize how lucky I have been, how easily it might have been otherwise. I hope I, we, can reclaim and employ what is holy and reject the distractions.
  • iquanyin
    the catholic church followers seem, as a whole, to be more active in things like helping the poor and so on. i've also noticed they tend to be well-educated.
  • joshuadavidbau
    Your experience is most honorable, and I appreciate the thought that you put into your response. Let me make a few points to push back your rather harsh push back. The experience I am sharing has grown out of many years of conversations with many whom have been hurt by people in churches, or who have been used by churches in inappropriate ways. Co-workers, Christians, non-Christians, Catholics, Protestants, Seminarians, Pastors, Priests have all been a part of my conversation and many of them see the dissonance, there is no inside knowledge needed, all one has to do is to enter the nearest church of over 700 members and the reality looks you directly in the eye.

    I grew up in the Catholic Church as well, four days a week I was at church from before I could stand until my Senior year of high school, and I did not share your experience, I did not find such loving people, I was often left with simple obligation. Liturgy is wonderful, but it doesn't save people, God and God working through the community of believers saves people.

    I have experienced many individuals who are amazing witnesses, but what about all the ones who aren't? What about all the sex scandals that are gripping the church both in the protestant and Catholic realms? It isn't just Christians who these affect, many non-religious folks are incredible offended by how many are seemingly getting away with these crimes.

    What about all the wealth that is tied up in building projects when communities need the presence of Christ, not a building for Christ. Simply because your experience transformed you in such a positive way doesn't mean that everyone else by necessity is affected by the same sorts of people or activities. We are all subjective beings, you absolutely have the right to your opinions, and your entitled to not like what I have to say but that doesn't change my observation, my experiences, or the ways in which I have been hurt by churches and folks within the church, nor does it change the blanket theological statements that systematically oppress folks like those in the GLBT community.

    Just to give you a little bit of my how did you put it "repulsive, disgruntled, judgmental, exclusive little snot" perspective. After growing up Catholic, I became a Biblical and Theological Studies major at Bethel University, and I was a youth counselor at a Christian camp and a youth worker on staff at a local church, it isn't hard to see that there is something that the basic structures of how a modern church operates cannot fulfill the needs of many who come hoping for transformation. And these structures make it difficult for the church to do the work of Christ in this world due to all the 'church politics' and differing opinions about what sort of faith statements one ought to have to be a member of said church. I never said anything about the church not working for anyone, clearly it does, but if you look at the culture of America and the Christian culture of America there is virtually no difference in the way in which they live for the vast majority of professed Christians, life is the American dream. I can see the reality that something is radically wrong.

    Again you can have your opinions on the matter, but simply because you have not shared my experience does not somehow make my experience invalid. I appreciate your last line, I hope with you that we can reclaim and employ what is holy and reject ( I would say discern) the distractions that have nothing to do with being a part and helping to live differently in this world. There is always hope that we can re-imagine what it means to be the church in America and be the change we wish to see so that we become known by our love above any banner, denomination, nationality or creed.
  • joshuadavidbau
    I also thought that both of you were the same person, sorry for the mish-mash, you both had the same picture, I'm just trying not to offend either of you by responding either with too much or not enough.
  • Sorry about the sameness of the avatars...I changed the default avatar a while back but realize now that it is confusing.
  • johnsob5
    Yeah, calling people snots is lame... I'm sorry for the anonimity that permits that kind of faceless, senseless rebuke. Thesauros - I would challenge you to offer some personal contact information, a phone number, an address, so the three of us could talk more directly and humanely rather than launching insults like that. The tone of posts around here is far from that and, I dare say, unwelcome. We're all just trying to figure it out. I'm sorry that our two posts got confused. I'll have to upload a picture.

    That said, I think your initial response Joshua was perhaps a little too colored by confusing the two posts... would you be open to taking a look again at what I had to say there, maybe direct some further comment/critique to the content of my examples. I appreciate knowing a little more about your background. As for all the failures of the (Catholic) church I can only grieve. There are some glaring things wrong, so much so that I wonder, like you, why anyone would ever want to sign on for Christianity of any flavor.
  • joshuadavidbau
    I agree that my response was completely colored by the need to appear in the right, which is just the sort of thing that I pray to avoid. With the throwing the baby out with the bathwater I disagree, if there were no established churches I truly believe that Christ would still have faithful followers, I am as guilty of this as anyone, but the spirit is more powerful than we can ever understand, the reach of the spirit is further than we would like to admit. It's almost as if we are afraid of the open waters, your response is very truthful and expressive, I agree that liturgy is beautiful, it is very powerful for me personally, but I have friends who feel that it is artificial and forced. I respect their opinion and don't attempt to argue for as you well know the Lord does work in the most beautiful ways.

    I have a very high respect for the Catholic church, for what it stands for and for its history, but that history will always be tainted by a few who were in charge that directed the steps of the organization even against the will of God God's self, for the will of God is always particular given the circumstances, but it always bears the fruit of love.

    I think we can both agree with Mother Theresa when she said that she was a little pencil in the hand of a living God who was writing a love letter to the world. This is what we both hope to be, and sometimes the only way to express this is to write something a little inflammatory to provoke others to feel something, because when we make others feel something, perhaps something they wouldn't want to feel, it clears the air so that we can talk openly about real issues.

    Hope this helps a little, sorry I confused the earlier post.

    J
  • johnsob5
    "the open waters" is a great image. Reminds of the gospel story of Jesus telling them to head for the deep water and cast there. Head for the deep water. Perhaps that is one measure of a "church" experience - does it point us (maybe even push us) out into deep water where the Spirit will move?

    And the pencil image is good too. I've been thinking about this a lot as weigh in here at JM. The inflamatory has a real value.

    I like musicals, and I like RENT a lot, and a line from "La Vie Boehm" sticks out in my mind all the time. Mark sings it: "The opposite of war isn't peace; it's creation!" I would echo another comment here, Joshua. Can you take some of these general principals and dare to be specific in another submission? There is much to critique out there. I don't mean to sound too paternalistic here, but maybe you could sketch out some ways to rebuild what you tear down. I know I would listen with eager ears to suggestions like that.
  • johnsob5
    p.s. I'm a troglodyte... how do you upload a picture to this deal? "Mac book, I am not worthy to be using you, but only show me how and I will not be such a doofus..."
  • Oh my, I find it repulsive when a little snot like you judges motives as though he had some inside knowledge of what goes on inside the lives of others. While you certainly make some valid points about consummerism, points one and two sound like some disgruntled kid who's insulted at never being invited to join and is too arrogant to join even if he WAS invited which should never happen as the foot-hold that you've given satan through anger (which I'm sure you consider righteous anger and therefore acceptable) will poison any group of which you are a part.
  • "I find it repulsive when a little snot like you judges"

    Hello Mr. Pot, I'd like to introduce you to Mr. Kettle.
  • I generally agree with the "don't throw out the baby with the bathwater" sentiment being raised in the comments here. Clearly, Josh is generalizing...and doing so in a rather challenging, even harsh, way. It actually reminded me of a quote by Tolstoy that I happened to find yesterday in doing some web research:

    “The Christian churches and Christianity have nothing in common save in name: they are utterly hostile opposites. The churches are arrogance, violence, usurpation, rigidity, death; Christianity is humility, penitence, submissiveness, progress, life.”

    The thing is, folks like Tolstoy or Kierkegaard or Luther or Bonhoeffer or Michael Sattler are usually affirmed when read through the distance of decades or centuries. I'm sure that, in their own time and contexts, they came off as harsh baby-with-bathwater thrower-outers.

    That doesn't mean I agree with Josh. But while it is certainly fair for people to criticize Josh's post for being too harsh, it is worthy of reflection. There are far too many churches that fit his caricature.
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