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	<title>Comments on: Come to me, all ye who labor for a living (part 3)</title>
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	<link>http://www.jesusmanifesto.com/2009/06/come-to-me-all-ye-who-labor-for-a-living-part-3/</link>
	<description>the radical way of Jesus in the Empire</description>
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		<title>By: paul munn</title>
		<link>http://www.jesusmanifesto.com/2009/06/come-to-me-all-ye-who-labor-for-a-living-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-15427</link>
		<dc:creator>paul munn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 17:32:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesusmanifesto.com/?p=3000#comment-15427</guid>
		<description>I just saw this piece in &lt;i&gt;the Onion&lt;/i&gt; and thought it fit pretty well with this series of essays:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theonion.com/content/node/54595&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Americans Celebrate 10 Millionth &#039;Bring Yourself To Work Day&#039;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;Bring Yourself To Work Day is a special workplace event observed five times weekly, and sometimes more, in every factory, office, warehouse, restaurant, and retailer of goods or services worldwide. The event has been used for generations in the U.S. and other industrialized nations as a way to instill in the workforce a sense of responsibility through repeated exposure to a largely unfulfilling work environment. It also introduces otherwise inactive adults to the benefits of steady employment and the importance of punctuality.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;...That the 10 millionth celebration occurred on a Monday, the traditional start of the work week, was not lost on many American workers during their morning commute.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;Ten millionth, huh?&quot; said San Diego systems analyst Alex Bass, 34, who commutes an average of three hours a day. &quot;Sounds about right.&quot; &lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just saw this piece in <i>the Onion</i> and thought it fit pretty well with this series of essays:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.theonion.com/content/node/54595" rel="nofollow"><b>Americans Celebrate 10 Millionth &#39;Bring Yourself To Work Day&#39;</b></a></p>
<blockquote><p>Bring Yourself To Work Day is a special workplace event observed five times weekly, and sometimes more, in every factory, office, warehouse, restaurant, and retailer of goods or services worldwide. The event has been used for generations in the U.S. and other industrialized nations as a way to instill in the workforce a sense of responsibility through repeated exposure to a largely unfulfilling work environment. It also introduces otherwise inactive adults to the benefits of steady employment and the importance of punctuality.</p>
<p>&#8230;That the 10 millionth celebration occurred on a Monday, the traditional start of the work week, was not lost on many American workers during their morning commute.</p>
<p>&#8220;Ten millionth, huh?&#8221; said San Diego systems analyst Alex Bass, 34, who commutes an average of three hours a day. &#8220;Sounds about right.&#8221; </p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: paul munn</title>
		<link>http://www.jesusmanifesto.com/2009/06/come-to-me-all-ye-who-labor-for-a-living-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-14281</link>
		<dc:creator>paul munn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 10:32:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesusmanifesto.com/?p=3000#comment-14281</guid>
		<description>I just saw this piece in &lt;i&gt;the Onion&lt;/i&gt; and thought it fit pretty well with this series of essays:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;img=&quot;http://www.theonion.com/content/files/images/Americans-Celebrate-Jump-R.article.jpg&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theonion.com/content/node/54595&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;Americans Celebrate 10 Millionth &#039;Bring Yourself To Work Day&#039;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;Bring Yourself To Work Day is a special workplace event observed five times weekly, and sometimes more, in every factory, office, warehouse, restaurant, and retailer of goods or services worldwide. The event has been used for generations in the U.S. and other industrialized nations as a way to instill in the workforce a sense of responsibility through repeated exposure to a largely unfulfilling work environment. It also introduces otherwise inactive adults to the benefits of steady employment and the importance of punctuality.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;...That the 10 millionth celebration occurred on a Monday, the traditional start of the work week, was not lost on many American workers during their morning commute.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;Ten millionth, huh?&quot; said San Diego systems analyst Alex Bass, 34, who commutes an average of three hours a day. &quot;Sounds about right.&quot; &lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just saw this piece in <i>the Onion</i> and thought it fit pretty well with this series of essays:</p>
<p>&lt;img=&#8221;http://www.theonion.com/content/files/images/Americans-Celebrate-Jump-R.article.jpg&#8221;&gt;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.theonion.com/content/node/54595" rel="nofollow"><b>Americans Celebrate 10 Millionth &#39;Bring Yourself To Work Day&#39;</b></a></p>
<blockquote><p>Bring Yourself To Work Day is a special workplace event observed five times weekly, and sometimes more, in every factory, office, warehouse, restaurant, and retailer of goods or services worldwide. The event has been used for generations in the U.S. and other industrialized nations as a way to instill in the workforce a sense of responsibility through repeated exposure to a largely unfulfilling work environment. It also introduces otherwise inactive adults to the benefits of steady employment and the importance of punctuality.</p>
<p>&#8230;That the 10 millionth celebration occurred on a Monday, the traditional start of the work week, was not lost on many American workers during their morning commute.</p>
<p>&#8220;Ten millionth, huh?&#8221; said San Diego systems analyst Alex Bass, 34, who commutes an average of three hours a day. &#8220;Sounds about right.&#8221; </p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: paul munn</title>
		<link>http://www.jesusmanifesto.com/2009/06/come-to-me-all-ye-who-labor-for-a-living-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-14267</link>
		<dc:creator>paul munn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Jun 2009 16:11:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesusmanifesto.com/?p=3000#comment-14267</guid>
		<description>Yes, they are good examples too, I think. Actually, the basic model for most religious orders and clergy is to serve people without charging them and live on the free gifts that are given (though this gets hazy when orders have communal businesses or clergy negotiate a salary...). The same for missionaries as well. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I remember one day asking myself: I see where they got this (from Jesus) but then why just clergy and missionaries, why not all of us? Aren&#039;t we all followers of Jesus&#039; teachings and example?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, they are good examples too, I think. Actually, the basic model for most religious orders and clergy is to serve people without charging them and live on the free gifts that are given (though this gets hazy when orders have communal businesses or clergy negotiate a salary&#8230;). The same for missionaries as well. </p>
<p>I remember one day asking myself: I see where they got this (from Jesus) but then why just clergy and missionaries, why not all of us? Aren&#39;t we all followers of Jesus&#39; teachings and example?</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Winton</title>
		<link>http://www.jesusmanifesto.com/2009/06/come-to-me-all-ye-who-labor-for-a-living-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-14266</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Winton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Jun 2009 13:13:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesusmanifesto.com/?p=3000#comment-14266</guid>
		<description>I know this thread is pretty much done with, but I was meaning to ask about Saint Francis and Mother Teresa. Are they also good examples in this conversation? I&#039;ve always heard stories about St. Francis renouncing his wealth and possessions, and even making people think he was crazy by preaching in the nude (not exactly the best way to procure donations!). &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Then Mother Teresa is also known for some holy antics. Like when she left the Nobel Peace Prize in the coat closet of the award ceremony auditorium. Or like when a rich man came to offer her money, but she refused him, inviting him instead to spend time with them back in India. All that to say, I don&#039;t think either of them &quot;pandered&quot; to the deep pockets of their day in order to get by. They also seemed to recognize the potentially compromising influence of money (respect too) to the fidelity of their work. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The story you wrote (Holy Fool) intersects with this as well. Good stuff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know this thread is pretty much done with, but I was meaning to ask about Saint Francis and Mother Teresa. Are they also good examples in this conversation? I&#39;ve always heard stories about St. Francis renouncing his wealth and possessions, and even making people think he was crazy by preaching in the nude (not exactly the best way to procure donations!). </p>
<p>Then Mother Teresa is also known for some holy antics. Like when she left the Nobel Peace Prize in the coat closet of the award ceremony auditorium. Or like when a rich man came to offer her money, but she refused him, inviting him instead to spend time with them back in India. All that to say, I don&#39;t think either of them &#8220;pandered&#8221; to the deep pockets of their day in order to get by. They also seemed to recognize the potentially compromising influence of money (respect too) to the fidelity of their work. </p>
<p>The story you wrote (Holy Fool) intersects with this as well. Good stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: paul munn</title>
		<link>http://www.jesusmanifesto.com/2009/06/come-to-me-all-ye-who-labor-for-a-living-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-14212</link>
		<dc:creator>paul munn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 10:19:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesusmanifesto.com/?p=3000#comment-14212</guid>
		<description>A couple that immediately come to mind:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_M%C3%BCller&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;George Müller&lt;/a&gt; of Bristol, England, who died in 1898. Here&#039;s a passage about him from &lt;i&gt;The Varieties of Religious Experience&lt;/i&gt; (by William James):&lt;br&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;...Early in life he resolved on taking certain Bible promises in literal sincerity, and on letting himself be fed, not by his own worldly foresight, but by the Lord&#039;s hand. He had an extraordinarily active and successful career, among the fruits of which were the distribution of over two million copies of the Scripture text, in different languages; the equipment of several hundred missionaries; the circulation of more than a hundred and eleven million of scriptural books, pamphlets, and tracts; the building of five large orphanages, and the keeping and educating of thousands of orphans; finally, the establishment of schools in which over a hundred and twenty-one thousand youthful and adult pupils were taught. In the course of this work Mr. Muller received and administered nearly a million and a half of pounds sterling, and traveled over two hundred thousand miles of sea and land. During the sixty-eight years of his ministry, he never owned any property except his clothes and furniture, and cash in hand; and he left, at the age of eighty-six, an estate worth only a hundred and sixty pounds.His method was to let his general wants be publicly known, but not to acquaint other people with the details of his temporary necessities. For the relief of the latter, he prayed directly to the Lord, believing that sooner or later prayers are always answered if one have trust enough. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The articles needed... were the food, fuel, etc., of his orphanages. Somehow, near as they often come to going without a meal, they hardly ever seem actually to have done so. &quot;Greater and more manifest nearness of the Lord&#039;s presence I have never had than when after breakfast there were no means for dinner for more than a hundred persons; or when after dinner there were no means for the tea, and yet the Lord provided the tea; and all this without one single human being having been informed about our need.... Through Grace my mind is so fully assured of the faithfulness of the Lord, that in the midst of the greatest need, I am enabled in peace to go about my other work. Indeed, did not the Lord give me this, which is the result of trusting in him, I should scarcely be able to work at all; for it is now comparatively a rare thing that a day comes when I am not in need for one or another part of the work.&#039;&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;In building his orphanages simply by prayer and faith, Muller affirms that his prime motive was &quot;to have something to point to as a visible proof that our God and Father is the same faithful God that he ever was—as willing as ever to prove himself the living God, in our day as formerly, to all that put their trust in him.&quot; For this reason he refused to borrow money for any of his enterprises. &quot;How does it work when we thus anticipate God by going our own way? We certainly weaken faith instead of increasing it; and each time we work thus a deliverance of our own we find it more and more difficult to trust in God, till at last we give way entirely to our natural fallen reason and unbelief prevails. How different if one is enabled to wait God&#039;s own time, and to look alone to him for help and deliverance! When at last help comes, after many seasons of prayer it may be, how sweet it is, and what a present recompense! Dear Christian reader, if you have never walked in this path of obedience before, do so now, and you will then know experimentally the sweetness of the joy which results from it.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;br&gt;Further research on Muller revealed: He would not accept a salary for his ministry. He refused to borrow money, and paid in full for every purchase. He believed that &quot;to lay up stores or hoard money was inconsistent with a life of faith.&quot; And while the general needs of his ministry were known, as a rule neither he nor his co-workers asked people for money. Yet for years God fed, sheltered, and clothed him and his family... plus teachers, and missionaries, and thousands of orphans! He writes: &quot;In all my experience I have found... that if I could only settle a certain thing to be done was according to the will of God, that means were soon obtained to carry it into effect.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Maybe that&#039;s enough for one comment. I was also thinking of the farmer here who became a full-time peace worker (with CPT). He began by following a passion, like Muller followed a need he saw, and God supported them in their work.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;My own experience in voluntary poverty and &quot;giving without payment&quot; started with pilgrimages all over this country, then caring for a disabled man in an intentional community, then work at a Catholic Worker house (shelter and soup kitchen), and now offering spiritual retreats for the poor. I can give more specifics if anyone&#039;s interested.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A couple that immediately come to mind:</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_M%C3%BCller" rel="nofollow">George Müller</a> of Bristol, England, who died in 1898. Here&#39;s a passage about him from <i>The Varieties of Religious Experience</i> (by William James):<br />
<blockquote>&#8230;Early in life he resolved on taking certain Bible promises in literal sincerity, and on letting himself be fed, not by his own worldly foresight, but by the Lord&#39;s hand. He had an extraordinarily active and successful career, among the fruits of which were the distribution of over two million copies of the Scripture text, in different languages; the equipment of several hundred missionaries; the circulation of more than a hundred and eleven million of scriptural books, pamphlets, and tracts; the building of five large orphanages, and the keeping and educating of thousands of orphans; finally, the establishment of schools in which over a hundred and twenty-one thousand youthful and adult pupils were taught. In the course of this work Mr. Muller received and administered nearly a million and a half of pounds sterling, and traveled over two hundred thousand miles of sea and land. During the sixty-eight years of his ministry, he never owned any property except his clothes and furniture, and cash in hand; and he left, at the age of eighty-six, an estate worth only a hundred and sixty pounds.His method was to let his general wants be publicly known, but not to acquaint other people with the details of his temporary necessities. For the relief of the latter, he prayed directly to the Lord, believing that sooner or later prayers are always answered if one have trust enough. </p>
<p>The articles needed&#8230; were the food, fuel, etc., of his orphanages. Somehow, near as they often come to going without a meal, they hardly ever seem actually to have done so. &#8220;Greater and more manifest nearness of the Lord&#39;s presence I have never had than when after breakfast there were no means for dinner for more than a hundred persons; or when after dinner there were no means for the tea, and yet the Lord provided the tea; and all this without one single human being having been informed about our need&#8230;. Through Grace my mind is so fully assured of the faithfulness of the Lord, that in the midst of the greatest need, I am enabled in peace to go about my other work. Indeed, did not the Lord give me this, which is the result of trusting in him, I should scarcely be able to work at all; for it is now comparatively a rare thing that a day comes when I am not in need for one or another part of the work.&#39;&#8221;</p>
<p>In building his orphanages simply by prayer and faith, Muller affirms that his prime motive was &#8220;to have something to point to as a visible proof that our God and Father is the same faithful God that he ever was—as willing as ever to prove himself the living God, in our day as formerly, to all that put their trust in him.&#8221; For this reason he refused to borrow money for any of his enterprises. &#8220;How does it work when we thus anticipate God by going our own way? We certainly weaken faith instead of increasing it; and each time we work thus a deliverance of our own we find it more and more difficult to trust in God, till at last we give way entirely to our natural fallen reason and unbelief prevails. How different if one is enabled to wait God&#39;s own time, and to look alone to him for help and deliverance! When at last help comes, after many seasons of prayer it may be, how sweet it is, and what a present recompense! Dear Christian reader, if you have never walked in this path of obedience before, do so now, and you will then know experimentally the sweetness of the joy which results from it.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>Further research on Muller revealed: He would not accept a salary for his ministry. He refused to borrow money, and paid in full for every purchase. He believed that &#8220;to lay up stores or hoard money was inconsistent with a life of faith.&#8221; And while the general needs of his ministry were known, as a rule neither he nor his co-workers asked people for money. Yet for years God fed, sheltered, and clothed him and his family&#8230; plus teachers, and missionaries, and thousands of orphans! He writes: &#8220;In all my experience I have found&#8230; that if I could only settle a certain thing to be done was according to the will of God, that means were soon obtained to carry it into effect.&#8221;</p>
<p>Maybe that&#39;s enough for one comment. I was also thinking of the farmer here who became a full-time peace worker (with CPT). He began by following a passion, like Muller followed a need he saw, and God supported them in their work.</p>
<p>My own experience in voluntary poverty and &#8220;giving without payment&#8221; started with pilgrimages all over this country, then caring for a disabled man in an intentional community, then work at a Catholic Worker house (shelter and soup kitchen), and now offering spiritual retreats for the poor. I can give more specifics if anyone&#39;s interested.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Winton</title>
		<link>http://www.jesusmanifesto.com/2009/06/come-to-me-all-ye-who-labor-for-a-living-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-14209</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Winton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 20:46:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesusmanifesto.com/?p=3000#comment-14209</guid>
		<description>Helpful stories? Sounds good to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Helpful stories? Sounds good to me.</p>
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		<title>By: paul munn</title>
		<link>http://www.jesusmanifesto.com/2009/06/come-to-me-all-ye-who-labor-for-a-living-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-14208</link>
		<dc:creator>paul munn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 10:46:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesusmanifesto.com/?p=3000#comment-14208</guid>
		<description>One important thing that is missing from this essay (and discussions) is practical examples and suggestions for putting Jesus&#039; &quot;give freely&quot; into practice. There&#039;s not an easy answer for everyone, of course. But I know of some helpful stories from other Christians (and have had a variety of experiences myself), if anyone is interested in pursuing that question.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One important thing that is missing from this essay (and discussions) is practical examples and suggestions for putting Jesus&#39; &#8220;give freely&#8221; into practice. There&#39;s not an easy answer for everyone, of course. But I know of some helpful stories from other Christians (and have had a variety of experiences myself), if anyone is interested in pursuing that question.</p>
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		<title>By: paul munn</title>
		<link>http://www.jesusmanifesto.com/2009/06/come-to-me-all-ye-who-labor-for-a-living-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-14207</link>
		<dc:creator>paul munn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 11:52:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesusmanifesto.com/?p=3000#comment-14207</guid>
		<description>Actually, Maria, buying and selling are two very different things. We all need food and shelter and physical care, etc. But we find in the world that people who have these things usually will not share them with us if they are not compensated in some way (i.e. they usually demand payment). From many things that Jesus said about money (such as his conversation about taxes) we know that he thought very little of the value of money. So to give people the money they demand was really a very small thing on his part, as it should be a small thing for us. And we receive the things of real value (food, clothing, etc).&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Selling is something completely different. Now we put ourselves in the place of demanding money before we will provide the goods or service that others need. We are asking for a contract or agreement to ensure that we will receive as much (or more) in return for anything we give. These things demonstrate an attitude that seems to me goes directly against Jesus&#039; teaching and example.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Also, Jesus&#039; directions to his disciples to accept the food and shelter given to them is quite different from &quot;receiving pay&quot; for their service (which Jesus told them to give &quot;without payment&quot;). In their visits in towns, they taught and healed very many people (for free) and only received hospitality from one family (according to Jesus&#039; directions). This is not reciprocation or a trade for services rendered. They gave to many people, and some people gave to them, the gifts all determined by the needs of each, not an equal trade or individual deal.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I&#039;ll just add that I never characterized any of this as defining sin, or describing any economic system (as I clearly stated previously). This is Jesus setting an example and telling us what perfect love looks like in our interactions with others, many of which are &quot;economic&quot; interactions. He did that all the time, referring to all areas of our lives.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;(Oh, and if you wish to discuss Paul&#039;s take on this, there&#039;s some comments about that after Part 2: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.jesusmanifesto.com/2009/06/come-to-me-all-ye-who-labor-for-a-living-part-2/#comment-10793223&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;click here&lt;/a&gt;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, Maria, buying and selling are two very different things. We all need food and shelter and physical care, etc. But we find in the world that people who have these things usually will not share them with us if they are not compensated in some way (i.e. they usually demand payment). From many things that Jesus said about money (such as his conversation about taxes) we know that he thought very little of the value of money. So to give people the money they demand was really a very small thing on his part, as it should be a small thing for us. And we receive the things of real value (food, clothing, etc).</p>
<p>Selling is something completely different. Now we put ourselves in the place of demanding money before we will provide the goods or service that others need. We are asking for a contract or agreement to ensure that we will receive as much (or more) in return for anything we give. These things demonstrate an attitude that seems to me goes directly against Jesus&#39; teaching and example.</p>
<p>Also, Jesus&#39; directions to his disciples to accept the food and shelter given to them is quite different from &#8220;receiving pay&#8221; for their service (which Jesus told them to give &#8220;without payment&#8221;). In their visits in towns, they taught and healed very many people (for free) and only received hospitality from one family (according to Jesus&#39; directions). This is not reciprocation or a trade for services rendered. They gave to many people, and some people gave to them, the gifts all determined by the needs of each, not an equal trade or individual deal.</p>
<p>I&#39;ll just add that I never characterized any of this as defining sin, or describing any economic system (as I clearly stated previously). This is Jesus setting an example and telling us what perfect love looks like in our interactions with others, many of which are &#8220;economic&#8221; interactions. He did that all the time, referring to all areas of our lives.</p>
<p>(Oh, and if you wish to discuss Paul&#39;s take on this, there&#39;s some comments about that after Part 2: <a href="http://www.jesusmanifesto.com/2009/06/come-to-me-all-ye-who-labor-for-a-living-part-2/#comment-10793223" rel="nofollow">click here</a>)</p>
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		<title>By: Maria Kirby</title>
		<link>http://www.jesusmanifesto.com/2009/06/come-to-me-all-ye-who-labor-for-a-living-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-14206</link>
		<dc:creator>Maria Kirby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 00:56:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesusmanifesto.com/?p=3000#comment-14206</guid>
		<description>Paul,&lt;br&gt;The reason I bring up the example of Jesus before his ministry again is because I find it is more consistent with the rest of scripture than the point of view you have.  You pointed out that “Jesus participated in the economic system of his time, too, to some extent (i.e. buying food).” and  “I never questioned the use of money. Jesus used it himself.”  Using money to buy food is engaging in a contract in the same way that someone gets paid for their work.  The fact that Jesus bought things is an implicit affirmation of wages not a gift economy.&lt;br&gt;Jesus further affirms wages when he sends out the seventy two disciples.  He tells them not to take a purse when they went out preaching but to stay at one house and accept the hospitality offered because a workman is worthy of his wages.  The hospitality that the disciples receive is their pay.  Paul reaffirms this when he writes to Timothy. &lt;br&gt;While I think that a person could live a faithful life practicing a ‘gift economy’ I don’t see that Jesus advocated one type of economy over another.   I find it very distressing when the Bible is used in such a manner.  I believe that we tread into the dangerous waters of heresy when we try to use the Bible for what it was not intended, whether that be science, history, economics, or geography.&lt;br&gt;What I find is that Jesus’ teachings are emphasizing our attitude towards God. It is not just adultery that is sin, but lust. It is not just murder that is sin, but hatred.  Jesus is sold out on loving God with all his heart, mind, soul and strength and advocates removing any hindrances to doing so.  He uses extremes to illustrate his point, advocating cutting off hands, feet, and plucking out eyes.  Selling all we have, and giving it to the poor, is another example of getting rid of something that would cause us to sin; something where we might worship instead of God.&lt;br&gt;Not having money does not change our attitudes.  Not having a job does not change our responsibility to work.  I believe that when Jesus says ‘Freely you have received, freely give,’ he is asking us to give generously what we have receive as a gift. I do not believe that he is necessarily advocating a lifestyle that is dependent upon gifts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul,<br />The reason I bring up the example of Jesus before his ministry again is because I find it is more consistent with the rest of scripture than the point of view you have.  You pointed out that “Jesus participated in the economic system of his time, too, to some extent (i.e. buying food).” and  “I never questioned the use of money. Jesus used it himself.”  Using money to buy food is engaging in a contract in the same way that someone gets paid for their work.  The fact that Jesus bought things is an implicit affirmation of wages not a gift economy.<br />Jesus further affirms wages when he sends out the seventy two disciples.  He tells them not to take a purse when they went out preaching but to stay at one house and accept the hospitality offered because a workman is worthy of his wages.  The hospitality that the disciples receive is their pay.  Paul reaffirms this when he writes to Timothy. <br />While I think that a person could live a faithful life practicing a ‘gift economy’ I don’t see that Jesus advocated one type of economy over another.   I find it very distressing when the Bible is used in such a manner.  I believe that we tread into the dangerous waters of heresy when we try to use the Bible for what it was not intended, whether that be science, history, economics, or geography.<br />What I find is that Jesus’ teachings are emphasizing our attitude towards God. It is not just adultery that is sin, but lust. It is not just murder that is sin, but hatred.  Jesus is sold out on loving God with all his heart, mind, soul and strength and advocates removing any hindrances to doing so.  He uses extremes to illustrate his point, advocating cutting off hands, feet, and plucking out eyes.  Selling all we have, and giving it to the poor, is another example of getting rid of something that would cause us to sin; something where we might worship instead of God.<br />Not having money does not change our attitudes.  Not having a job does not change our responsibility to work.  I believe that when Jesus says ‘Freely you have received, freely give,’ he is asking us to give generously what we have receive as a gift. I do not believe that he is necessarily advocating a lifestyle that is dependent upon gifts.</p>
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		<title>By: paul munn</title>
		<link>http://www.jesusmanifesto.com/2009/06/come-to-me-all-ye-who-labor-for-a-living-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-14205</link>
		<dc:creator>paul munn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 09:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jesusmanifesto.com/?p=3000#comment-14205</guid>
		<description>I think we discussed Jesus&#039; &quot;work before his ministry&quot; before, Maria, didn&#039;t we? We know almost nothing about that, so there is no &quot;example&quot; there for us to follow. And if we are going to make assumptions about that time of Jesus&#039; life, it seems to me that it would be more accurate to assume that his way of working as a carpenter would be similar to his way of working (and giving) during the time we &lt;i&gt;do&lt;/i&gt; know about his life (rather than assuming that he worked and charged for his services like everyone else we see).&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I&#039;ll let others decide from their job experience whether they agree that freedom in work is just a matter of &quot;attitude.&quot; My own experience is that whether you are paid or not, an employee or a volunteer, makes a &lt;i&gt;huge&lt;/i&gt; difference, both in the freedom of the work itself (divided concerned about profitability vs. single-minded concern for quality) and the freedom of the relationships (boss-employee, employee-client vs. gift giver-receiver). And Jesus told his disciples, not just to change their attitude, but actually change their way of interacting with people: &quot;Freely you have received, freely give&quot; (or, as some translations have it, &quot;You received without payment, give without payment&quot; Mt 10.8).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think we discussed Jesus&#39; &#8220;work before his ministry&#8221; before, Maria, didn&#39;t we? We know almost nothing about that, so there is no &#8220;example&#8221; there for us to follow. And if we are going to make assumptions about that time of Jesus&#39; life, it seems to me that it would be more accurate to assume that his way of working as a carpenter would be similar to his way of working (and giving) during the time we <i>do</i> know about his life (rather than assuming that he worked and charged for his services like everyone else we see).</p>
<p>I&#39;ll let others decide from their job experience whether they agree that freedom in work is just a matter of &#8220;attitude.&#8221; My own experience is that whether you are paid or not, an employee or a volunteer, makes a <i>huge</i> difference, both in the freedom of the work itself (divided concerned about profitability vs. single-minded concern for quality) and the freedom of the relationships (boss-employee, employee-client vs. gift giver-receiver). And Jesus told his disciples, not just to change their attitude, but actually change their way of interacting with people: &#8220;Freely you have received, freely give&#8221; (or, as some translations have it, &#8220;You received without payment, give without payment&#8221; Mt 10.8).</p>
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