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Radical Subordination: Wives Submit to Your Husbands!

Submitted by Sarah Lynne Anderson on October 29, 2008 – 8:43 pmView Comments
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“Wives submit to your husbands.”

Growing up, this seemed to be one of the least understood statements in the bible, right after women being admonished to be silent in church and to wear head-coverings when praying, of course. Bringing up these verses in my relatively modern, evangelical mega-church always produced vague responses and confused expressions. Usually, with a little bit of embarrassment, there was some basic acceptance that men just have to be in charge, maybe because men’s maleness somehow represents God better (that’s why the priests were always male right?), or because, in spite of all anthropological research showing the contrary, men just really are better at being in charge and women really do kind of just want to have and nurture babies (but not really of course… I mean women CEO’s are ok), or maybe it is just an arbitrary command and we follow it because God tells us to… That statement is usually made with a bit more confidence, and garners more respect from me, but I think that all these explanations represent a fundamental misunderstanding of what Paul is saying in these verses.

It is often thought that Paul is simply reinforcing the power structures and gender roles that have existed since the rise of stratification and empires, that he is telling rebellious women to remain in their place. Really what Paul is doing though, is encouraging a radical subordination that reflects Christ nature and helps them be a better witness to that nature, in their society.

In general, we don’t seem to get that. It seems people think about this issue in one of these ways: A) people still view it as God’s dictation on who should be in charge (how power is distributed in God’s kingdom, which is ultimately oppressive to women), B) people don’t know how to view it, so they uncomfortably water it down basically saying that they think women are equal in value but men should still have most of the power (or maybe they just don’t really know what they mean), or C) they believe men and women should be fully equal, but that Christian women are not yet free or equal in our society so they should fight for that and try to attain it (men should help too, but can’t be counted on because they benefit from the status quo). All of these views completely ignore the ethic of submission and subordination which is proclaimed in the life of Christ and Paul’s writings.

Even when it stares us in the face, as in Ephesians 5 when immediately before the statement that wives should submit to their husbands Christians are called to submit to one another, and husbands are called to practice agape love towards their wives. In Colossians 3 (and this is expanded on in Ephesians as well) children are called to obey their parents, but then parents are reminded to not provoke their children. Slaves are called to obey their masters right before the masters are called to treat the slaves as brothers and sisters in Christ. Throughout scripture we are reminded that Christ humbled himself, taking on the nature of a servant, and we are to do the same.

The cross isn’t simply a weapon for sacrificial killing, it represents the ultimate acquiescence to the powers of oppression and death that rule this world in order to rob them of their power. Only someone with complete freedom and authority (someone within the Godhead, which is specifically Christ of course, but also us, as we partake in his divine nature), can submit to mocking and the cross without any sense of being coerced or ruled by these powers. Because the cross itself was influential in coercing people to be ruled by the empire, the fact that someone was able submit to death on the cross and rise again three days later, proving his defeat of it, we as Christians (alive in Christ, taking on his nature, and being imitators of him, with his resurrection as the first-fruits and promise of ours) are able to live knowing we are completely free of the power struggles and tools of oppression in this world.

This freedom is the context for Paul’s discussion on men and women’s roles in the church. Often, Christians look to the epistles for easy answers on how to live morally. Like the rich man, who hopes he’s secured eternal life by following the ten commandments, we miss the whole purpose of the Paul’s guidance about men and women when we enforce rules without an understanding of the purpose and underlying ethic that supports his teaching. This is the problem I’ve seen most in discussions on gender in the church. I’ve rarely heard pastors or teachers address the verses within the context of the entire passage it is situated in, let alone look at its role and purpose within a distinctly Christ-like worldview.

What is more frustrating to me though, is the way I’ve seen Christians who disagree with the traditional view ignore Paul’s teaching in this area and essentially use the critiques and perspectives of secular feminists, orientated in a worldview in which economic and coercive power define who is equal and free or not. I think that perspective is useful and important for Christians to understand, but we can not use it to develop morality or to combat inequality within the church. We are called to be imitators of Christ, and Christ turned the powers of this world on it’s head, making the first, last and choosing to forsake his power in order to lay down his life. He subordinated himself to the powers, allowing them to kill him on the cross, but doing this also gave him the opportunity to show the superficiality of these kinds of power, their ultimate inability to direct history.
From this perspective, Paul’s teaching makes perfect sense. It is orientated in the kind of freedom that makes battling the gendered powers on their terms ridiculous. Just as slaves are encouraged to submit to their masters, fully free women are encouraged to be silent in church, or to submit to their husbands, for the sake of their witness to the gospel in that culture. Men, on the other hand, are encouraged to lay down their lives for their wives, loving them as Christ loved us (who remember, made himself nothing, taking on the nature of a servant). This is something unheard of in that culture, and also reflects the same ethic of radical subordinancy the women are called to live in.

So what do we do with this? I’m not really asking this question rhetorically, because I’ve had a hard time answering it. In fact, as a female, this part of this essay is hard to write. I’m not particularly good at laying down my rights and life for those around me, and I’d guess that if I ever marry I will naturally be the more outspoken and domineering one in the relationship. As such, I’m tempted to continue to proclaim the radical beauty of submission and ignore the need for change in the church in regards to the way we view women and their roles. I’m even tempted to say women should accept submission with joy, as a unique way of being Christ-like, but again that doesn’t address hundreds of years of church-sponsored oppression (and besides, as I’ve said above, I barely submit, let alone know what it might mean to do so joyfully!). Ultimately, I find it a bit ironic that I, after affirming my own position of submission, would then be telling men how to behave, but here I go anyway…

I think the practical application of Paul’s teaching is ultimately an equalizer, but in the opposite direction that feminists often propose. Instead of women gaining power, men are called to ultimately give up their power. Instead of women being brought up to the status as also “in charge,” men are called to voluntarily consider women as themselves, and thus give up their life and position for the sake of women. This doesn’t directly challenge the status quo. That is, men are not told that they don’t have authority, but it subverts it because men no longer have the means of coercion that would “put women in their place.” Basically Christian males should be the feminists in the most explicit way, not so much Christian females.

I think both complementarianism and egalitarianism get at this, but fall short in different ways. Complementarians make the mistake of believing that somehow men and women are so fundamentally different that female submission and male dominance are somehow “natural.” Egalitarians make the mistake of ignoring the ethic of submission in an attempt to make co-masters.

I will finish this up by giving one very small, practical example of how Christian males could begin to truly love their wives and sisters in a radical way, a way that literally reflects a “dying to self” for the sake of women. It would be interesting, if, as a small step forward, men began to be more careful of the way they speak to women and in the presence of women. Many sociological studies have shown that men tend to use more domineering language. They tend to interrupt more, to neglect to qualify statements (instead stating their opinions as facts) and to generally talk more than women (obviously all men do not do this, and some women do… I’d probably fall in the later category for example). This may not seem actively violent or coercive, but it arises from a history of violence and oppression against women and is thus a way our society tries to rob women of their dignity while maintaining male power at the expense of female freedom. I call this a true “dying to self,” because it is the way males often learn to speak, a manner of speaking that our society values, and probably seems very natural and integral to their identity.

On the other hand, females are taught deference. They learn to qualify their statements, not to interrupt, and to seek agreement instead of opposition (males tend to say “I disagree” much more readily, for example). Females may need to be asked questions, or prompted to speak in many situations. I prefer the feminine style of speech, not because I naturally use it (I do to some degree, but have also easily used masculine language), but because it gives deference to the other speaker. It doesn’t undermine the other speaker’s voice or ideas that way masculine language does. It considers others before itself. Christian men, in order to practice a dying of self, an agape-love towards females, would do well to use the feminine style more often, and to actively invite and consider females’ ideas both in private and public gatherings, especially in arenas that remain male-dominated even as they proclaim equality, such as in the emergent church conversation. We should not consider it good for women to assert their authority or voice, instead we should consider it good for us to submit to one another in Christ. Men, laying down themselves for women, and women practicing a radical submission, as Christ models for both of us.

Author Bio:: Sarah Lynne is a Floridian currently braving Minneapolis winter. She graduated from Webster University with a major in Anthropology and a minor in International Human Rights, and lives in Missio Dei‘s Clare House with some friends.

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About Sarah Lynne

Sarah Lynne is a member of Missio Dei. She has her BA in Anthropology and a minor in Human Rights. When she isn't reading about cannibalistic flies and spinning yarn, she's usually watching old episodes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

  • Jonathan
    I suppose Jesus made grape juice out of water? The problem here is that people pick and choose what they want to take literally and figuratively. They choose what they want to interpret as a command and not. Does Jesus have the right to demand obedience? Obsolutely, He is God. We are to submit to Him. Do we? no. Does the husband have the right, via the scripture to demand submission from his wife, yes. Is the wife commanded to submit, yes. Remember in love Christ never said to the woman at the well, "you do it your way." He could have, he also could have condemned her. He did niether, this is our example as men. We are to call for what is right, holy and pure. We should have grace, like Christ, to love our wives despite unwillingness/ inability. If we are truly pursuing Christ, our will is to follow Him and to lead others to Him. This being the case the wife should have no issue submitting as it will be as submitting to God's direction.
  • Amalia Collins
    I appreciate your writing on this topic--a topic so overlooked in Christian circles, a topic that seems so ackward to talk about--especially for the dudes in the church. I very rarely hear a creative understanding or good interpretation of the Pauline references. Though they are out there, especially when looking at the cultural context of the writings. I really don't think Paul was a misogynist.
    I've been working through my own struggles as a Christian female-- seeking healing for the patriarchal past of Christianity, desiring to hear Jesus as Christ for who he was and is and his radical example through his interactions with women. Meditating on Jesus' beautiful, holistic, and deeply respectful interactions with women gives me hope for men in the church. That they would be inspired to imitate Jesus in his interactions with women. After all the gospel is all about Jesus not Paul right? Not to disregard Paul, but hey--his commentary often overshadows the deepth of Jesus' revolutionary love and servitude.

    One more comment on overcoming female oppression in the church is to think about how much we use "HE" in reference to God--If we are in fact made in the image of God--both male and female they HEY where is "SHE"? This voice of "HE" is heard in the songs we sing, and in the way we talk about God in the masculine voice. The problem I have with this is the male attributes of God are focused on (whether consciously or subconsciously) and the balance is both male and female--the female characteristics of God are something to behold! Nurturing, healing. . .

    I could go on for paragraphs more--but thanks for your thoughtful writing!
  • Jon
    I love this idea because I think two things come out of this:

    1) Men still must refuse to acknowledge any idea that they have some sort of "right" or "power" over their wives, or over women in general in the Church.

    2) But also, in redefining our understanding of "submission" as the Apostles applies it to women, it radically robs culture, society and the world of any and all power to define and to dominate. When women submit, it is not to acknowledge the superiority of men, or that husbands have some sort of "right" over their wives, but that the act of submission suddenly becomes a "turn the other cheek".

    Suddenly, to be a disciple of Jesus Christ means to imitate Him; the act of imitating Him in submitting, there is no power, and that which had formerly been powerful loses all power. That's amazing. Women who, in imitation of Christ, submit to their husbands are not quietly accepting the "authority" of their husbands, but rather, paradoxically, becoming imitators of the One who is Lord of all things. "Whoever is greatest among you must be least."

    Awesome.
  • BDRhodes
    Sarah, this is a stellar article. I've been waiting for someone to so directly tackle this topic, and in doing so you brought into focus many things that I have been struggling to find words for for years. Thank you for that.

    The comment about language is piercing to me, quite directly. The impulse to NEED to talk has been one that Jesus has been explicitly working on in me for the past thirty months at least. In a church membership class at Imago Dei, my impulse was to answer all the questions, even if someone already asked them. Sometimes the motive was to prove my knowledge, other times to stand up for a better interpretation. The line between those motives was usually blurry.

    So, to be perfectly charismatic about it, the Holy Spirit shut me up. I felt the mental impulses to chat, but somehow I felt gently restrained from raising my hand or my voice to answer. It was fascinating to see male friends in the class whom I know well continue to chirp in EVERY TIME.

    The experience of the Spirit chastening my tongue for that multi-week class ended with the class, but the lesson and the habit has increased since then.

    And here's what I've found it boils down to: CONTROL. For me, I think it was some self-important need to control, steer, or otherwise guide a conversation on my terms. And in church circles, the impulse was usually out of a zeal for standing up for peace, justice, what-have-you. Not a bad reason to chime in. But why should I need to defend Jesus so zealously, every time? It's as if I had a Francis Schaeffer-like impulse to be contentious.

    So, I'm learning to listen to others better, instead of thinking up my own contribution or response. And it's almost morbidly fun to watch that (masculine) impulse to chirp-chirp-chirp be squashed by this new discipline of "non-grasping" of situations. I'm learning to be increasingly other-minded in conversations, to stop thinking of my own best opinion and just listen and respond well. It's another bit of learning to love well.

    (Yes I'm aware of the irony of writing that much about my own learning to shut up, heheh)

    Lastly, I love your line in one of your responses --"My point is that we aren't abolishing the system, we are making the system inoperable." I'm going to be processing that for quite a while, as I think it explains the cross, and the cross-bearing community, in a way that no Che or Guitterez ever could.
  • Wow. This is by far the best exegesis I have ever heard of Ephesians 5. In particular I was captured by:

    "Egalitarians make the mistake of ignoring the ethic of submission in an attempt to make co-masters."

    Fabulous.
  • Sarah Lynne, I really like what you've written. I like your suggestions. It reminds me of the verses about how if we control the tongue we control the whole person.

    As a woman, I like what you say about submission. I don't get the impression that people understand that when they submit to authority, the buck stops with those in authority. When women submit to men, then men have to own up to their own failings, they can't pass them off like Adam did to Eve. (My definition of submitting doesn't mean that a wife can't point out the potential consequences of the choices the husband is making.) By submitting to our husbands, we allow God to work in his heart.
  • eterneles
    I find it a beautiful subversive passage of living the weak life. A call to the cross is a call to seeing others, in this case, ones wife as worth dying for. To die for someone is to consider your own life less than someone else's life. I struggle with how we have made this so controversial and find it a debilitating conversation in churches today. Why? Because it stems from an idea of worthiness verses worthlessness. In our worthiness, we seek to define our worthiness and protect it. Our worth is where our power lay. When we seek to defend our worth on either side we must become oppressive. Where there is oppression at the focus of life together, there is a high probability that there is no willingness to submit to those who stand outside of our walls. In other words, in places where this conversation does not land in a mutual outdoing unto one another of submission, it is unlikely that there is service to the poor, oppressed, the widow or the orphan. For it is only in our ability to value them more than or at least equal to ourselves that we can serve them, love them and care for them as our God in Christ. "Who, though being in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be exploited but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form, he humbled himself and became obedient to death –– even death on a cross" (Philippians 2.6-7).

    Imagine that conversation in heaven. "Father, you know that it is my job to save the world. You set it up that way, you go down their and die. How will they ever respect me if I am some weak minded fool. Now, as the king, I am telling you to shut up and get down there and you show them how to live. Otherwise, I'm out and we can just sit here and enjoy this wonderful place just the three of us. Now no more talk about whose more important, or powerful, or supposed to lead in the creation process. I got this and we know it. Just sit back and enjoy the ride. I'll let you know when you can do something." It seems that if Jesus concern was a lack thereof for himself, that it is never my job to promote a woman's position instead it is to merely acknowledge mine in humility and down right humiliation of self below not only my wife but all women, men, children perhaps even creation if I believe redemption is of all things. What would that world look like?
  • Yeah, I don't think the Christian is called to a life of assertiveness. Paul said to lead a "quiet life."

    It's not about allowing women to assert them in the same manner as men, but that the men give themselves up as Christ did so they are not asserted over the woman.
  • pdxfudge
    Great article. I would have loved some more interaction with the texts and some more background on the passages and on male/female and slave/master roles in the first century. Check out the 8th (or 9th, I can't remember) chapter of "The Politics of Jesus" by John Howard Yoder for some great background historical info and textual detail. One of the main points he brings out is that in normal Greco-Roman literature women and slaves were not addressed. Their roles are talked about by others, and the many roles of men in relation to women, slaves and children are addressed, but its always to the male and from the male's perspective. The very fact that Paul addressed women, slaves and children (effectively non-people) in his letters, is revolutionary and subversive. By writing to women and slaves, and by addressing them first, he was giving status to those without status and he was giving worth to the worthless. There was something in the good news of Jesus that made women seek to claim this new status, and so Paul is now telling the formerly-statusless-women to submit in humility and witness to this mutual-submission way of Jesus. Paul is
  • SarahLynne
    i started writing this article when I was at the beginning of the Politics of Jesus. When I noticed that chapter I was a little distressed and almost wanted to stop writing and encourage everyone to just read PoJ. Yoder says all of this better than me.

    I do think that plays a major role in this discussion though. Where-as before women were forced to submit, in Christ women can choose to submit in imitation of Him, from a place of freedom and integrity.
  • Jablue
    It's a great point that the burden of action is on the oppressor (men) to come down from their throne of oppression, and it is not for the oppressed (women) to rise up and overthrow the oppressive male hierarchy (Feminism). I believe this presents a much more biblical view to the issue, and it seems far more potentially successful. For it seems right for the one in oppressive power to come down and not the oppressed to rise up into dueling power- that will only compound the problem. Then you wind up with two hierarchical authorities instead of the desired number- zero.
  • This was excellent. I've always struggled with this area and for the most part ignored it because I had heard it preached in the male dominating fashion, which never sat well with me. I think your article is phenomenal in describing the faces of submission and how they play out in different relationships.
  • John
    and daggonit-- wish I would have proofed that more before sending-- sorry for the typos/grammatical errors.
  • John
    Yeah-- being a married male- practically speaking I do not agree with this article. My wife does not "submit" to me-however you nuance that term or try and redefine it- in any different or more substantial way than I "submit" to my wife.

    I am more egalitarian in my views. I believe in mutual submission, and quite frankly, in issues where we disagree we often work and discuss until we come to some consensus, rather than my views trumping hers in whatever way

    I do not have time to write out a book supporting this opinion, but I do think it is biblically sound. I attended Bible college and studied the subject, among others, extensively. Not that that means anything- I simply mention it to say that I am not uninformed on the subject. My conclusion is that this was largely a cultural mandate.

    I also have trouble seeing how my wife submitting to my "leadership" really shows Christ to a watching world. I think more often that not it creates just one more, rather silly, obstacle to my many friends who are not Christians. In the past, iust beginning to try to explain this to someone who is not a Christian has gotten me some pretty strong responses, not because they are super liberal or weird-- but just because it is a bizarre concept in our "modern/postmodern/contemporary whatever you want to call it" world. It is similar to trying to any friend why women would need to cover their head or aren't supposed to speak in church. Those things were directly relevant in Paul's time. They are not relevant in the same way now.

    I think the issue needs to be subject to interpretation- based on Paul saying this to Christians back then, what does that mean for Christians in our time.

    Just one man interpretation.
  • SarahLynne
    in response to your third paragraph: I actually think that what Paul would say to Christians in our time is something more like, "Isn't clear that men and women are created equal before God? Why then do you hang on to traditions and practices that even nonChristians know dehumanizes are sisters in Christ and creates division? Husband, do not lord it over your wife, carrying some kind of 'trump' card of decision-making. Remember that you both answer to the same God..."

    What I wanted to do was communicate what Paul was doing within the context of his culture. He spoke differently to men and women because they were operating in different roles within that culture. My point is that we aren't abolishing the system, we are making the system inoperable.

    Maybe I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too... but I guess this comes from my perspective that we as social animals, are molded and formed by our society. Roles exist in every culture through-out history. There has never been a place where women and men have exactly the same roles, and I don't think we are called to abolish the roles, but operate within them in such a way that does not enforce them coercively, or that communicates inferiority.

    Ultimately, if the church had done this, they would've then begin operating within freer and looser roles as people's identities were shaped different by the culture they'd created, and as the society began to create different, and possibly more "equal" roles. That point is, that our equality and freedom is not derived from whether our society tells us we are free and equal, but from the fact that Christ makes up free and equal.

    I feel less confident in my understanding of the change in roles, which is why I didn't want to address it. I feel like I need to do more research, and think more about whether this makes sense biblically... but I am definitely feeling like what I am understanding Paul to say, combined with my understanding of what it means to be human (from Anthropology) leads me in this direction.
  • Casey
    Sarah Lynne, nice article. Your last sentence hit the nail on the head.
  • SarahLynne
    <this is in response to chad m>

    I agree. I think it is even more interesting if you start around Eph 2:20. You can see Paul outline what it means to "put on a new self." He rejects the idea that we should really on the proper rules to make us pure and right with God, discusses the ways of the old life (most of which involve relational sin, that is: angry, wrath, malice, slander, obscene talk, covetousness, sexual sin...),

    and then, to begin the discussion on the new life he starts with the concept that we there is none of the social divisions in Christ, so we are a new restored, equal people. We are reconciled with each other, and as such the ways of the new life are also largely based in relationships. Here we see terms that ask us to seek reconcilition and to forgive each other, which will mean a that a person who is harmed would have to lay down their rights for the sake of their reconciliation!

    then Paul lays down the nitty gritty. He recognizes that within our fallen society the distinctions still exist. We aren't asked to fight against them in a way that would create adversaries, but in a way that shows Christ's nature (which made end up creating adversaries, but not at the Christian's initiation). I think this is why Paul says elsewhere that a wife to a non-believing husband may win her to Christ this way.

    Anyway, point is, i agree! context is so often overlooked when i hear this passage preached. it's always been frustrating to me. in regards to the women as pastors or elders question, i think i agree with Yoder when he says that we are "asking the wrong question." this issue may be less of an issue if our church structure was more de-centralized and churches were smaller. I also think both people who still believe males somehow have greater "authority" could still benefit from understanding that within this context. I don't think Paul explicitly rejects male authority, but he does make the enforcement of it pretty impossible (especially in personal relationships), as well as the enforcement of slavery and even weakens parental authority. ultimately it is a very humanizing ethic.
  • This is good stuff, Sarah.

    My only hindrance here is that, to me, men and women DO have certain roles in their relationships (especially marraige).

    IMHO, men are the givers and women are the receivers. This by no means to say that women can't or shouldn't have equal rights and authority or that women shouldn't be providers along with their husbands (or even in place of their husbands). But that in general, men give and women receive. I think this is even evidenced in sex. The man gives and the women receives. One is going into the other.

    What do you think?
  • The sexual view is dangerous because our reproductive organs were used by Aristotle to "prove" scientifically that men were superior to women and was used in the ancient near east to "prove" that women were to be submissive in a relationship (because their vagina goes inward, which Aristotle interpreted to be a deformed penis...you can't make this stuff up if you wanted to. haha). I just get nervous anytime someone tries to use sex to show something about gender roles. Your metaphor also might be subverted to say, "While the penis is giving the vagina, the vagina envelopes the penis."

    ----someone with authority can delete this if it is too explicit----------
  • SarahLynne
    I'm not sure I understand what you mean with giving and receiving. I also don't see how this is supported biblically. It seems like it would be hard to prove that women don't offer men something in relationships, that the men don't receive anything from being in a relationship with a women. Sex seems to be the only explicit way you could make that claim, and I wouldn't extend that as a metaphor into every part of the husband and wife relationship.

    I do agree there seem to be different roles, but the common understanding of them seems to be shallow. For example, Paul talks about the male being the "head" of the relationship in 1 Cor 10:2-16 and likens that to how Christ is the head of men (he also says that about the church in general elsewhere). We often just assume this means "in charge," but in greek literature that word is usually translated at "source." It would make sense to translate it this way because when Paul explains it he talks about how women "came from" man and then how man comes from women. Also that makes sense, because in terms of Christ and God, it makes more sense to say that Christ's source in the Godhead, than to say the person in charge is "God."

    I do think this implies some authority, but I wonder if it is more in terms of how there has already been authority given to that person. So, for example, Christ has authority because he comes from the Godhead, but he chooses to lay it aside in order to bring reconciliation between people and God. Man is also considered to naturally have authority according to tradition that his source is God (which would be why Paul then emphasizes that women came from man), but again modeling Christ, man is asked to lay down his life for the person who doesn't already have recognized authority.

    I love that Paul creates an equalizer for the "man coming from God" tradition by reminding them that man now comes from women.

    finally, this idea of being "contentious" fits in with radical subordination. We aren't called to be prone to anger and dispute, to tear down society's structures, but to treat each other differently within them in order to subvert them, lovingly and gracefully. Again, I don't think different roles are wrong. I just think enforcing them in a way that is based in coercion and bullying is wrong. We should always approach relationships with the idea of laying down your ego for the other.
  • SarahLynne
    Also, it would be tedious to go into this, but I would always be careful talking about female and male relationships within our culture's history as completely natural and normal. There are always exceptions through-out history in different cultures (and sex is not just a penis penetrating a vagina). I agree that there may be practices that are wrong, but it is based in the way God calls us to live, not because we happen to have been doing things a certain way.

    I seriously don't want to get to detailed about this (I do get a little uncomfortable talking about sexual activity with strangers), but I feel the need to emphasize that within the abilities of men and women to engage in sexual relations, the male does not have to always be the penetrater (females penetrating the penis is even found in our culture). If you want to know more you can read Toward an Anthropology of Women.
  • I really like your recommendation about speech. I have a double-problem: I naturally speak a lot, and when combined with the generalized masculine tendencies outlined above, I squash other people's input unintentionally. I discovered this in a class I took in Women's Studies; I was one of 2 men in the class, and despite trying to shut up, the professor noted that I spoke at a 3:1 ratio compared to the rest of the class. It's not obvious, and it's hard, but these aspects can be tempered to better draw out input from those less apt or willing to speak out.
  • I think this is what Sarah might be talking about in the article. You used the word "naturally" in reference to the way you speak. A stronger truth might be that sociologically, religiously, and culturally you have been taught to talk a lot. This is not just your maleness, but your family values and cultural values all playing into it. This is also why I think many teachers think that African-American students "act out" more than white kids in high school. They might say something like "African-Americans just naturally talk more," but it is a sociological and cuttural value system rooted in the fact that black students often see schools as the enforcer of racism and segregation (it is more complicated than this...but it is just an example).
  • You know, I don't think I've ever thought of it that way. I guess when I say 'naturally' I mean both the nature and the nurture aspects of my development - a strong part of that is probably that my father is very articulate and outspoken, and I'm sure that had some sort of effect.
  • I know exactly what you mean, bro. It's one of the hardest things to just shut-up and listen. I have struggled with the same thing for so long. I think it is something that is rooted in pride.

    I've been watching and learning from my mentor as he just sits and listens to people (even though he probably has the perfect response to give them). People want to be heard...not just women.
  • when reading this text, one needs to ignore the modern verse and chapter demarcations and start at, "submit to one another out of reverene for Christ." mutual submission is Paul's goal. submission that looks like Christ dying on the cross. submission that involves carrying our crosses and the crosses of others. submission that involves humility, sacrifice, and love.

    i think the word and concept of "submission" has been grossly misinterpreted in an attempt to keep women in their place and exclude them from leadership. that's an outrage and something we must reject...
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