Zizek, Obama and the Emerging Church齐泽克，奥巴马和新兴教会
Written by Mark Van Steenwyk : February 23, 2008写的马克范steenwyk ： 2008年2月23日
I had made the editorial decision to avoid political articles for a month or so…but David Fitch wrote a great article today that has already stirred up some important feedback.我已作出决定，社论，以避免政治文章，一，两个月或使… …但朱惠誉写了伟大的文章今天表示，已经激起了一些重要的反馈。 Here’s some of the juicy stuff from这里的一些对多汁的东西从 his article他在文章中 : ：
…In essence, we listen to all the new political speeches and new political options given the electorate and we know nothing will really change. … …在本质上，我们听取所有新的政治演说和新的政治选择，由于选民和我们一无所知，真的会改变。 Yet we participate in it anyway, because in essence subconsciously this is what we really want: we wish to protect our own specific pieces of the economic social pie yet feel good about doing it (there’s the classic Freudian split in the subjective consciousness).然而，我们参加在它无论如何，因为在本质上的潜意识，这是我们真正想要：我们要保护我们自己的具体作品的经济，社会，馅饼，但感觉很好做（有经典的弗洛伊德分裂，在主观意识） 。 Political ideology serves a cynical function now, giving us a Big Other to participate in, making us feel better about ourselves (morally), all the while we hope for keeping the status quo in place protecting our own personal pieces of the pie.思想政治工作提供服务，玩世不恭的功能，现在，给我们一个很大的其他参与，使我们感觉更好关于我们（在道义上） ，所有的同时，我们希望保持现状，在地方，保护我们自己的切身件馅饼。
And here’s more Fitchy goodness:和这里的更多fitchy善：
When it comes to Christians of my evangelical tradition, I would suggest this “ideological cynicism” could work another way.当谈到基督徒我的福音事工促进会，传统，我建议这个“思想犬儒主义”可以工作的另一种方式。 We participate in National politics, its political ideologies of a more just society, even though we deeply suspect the corporate national machine insures nothing will change.我们参加了在国家政治，其政治意识形态的一个更加公正的社会，即使我们深切地怀疑公司的国家机器保险没有将有所改变。 We do this because it is much harder to think of the church itself as a legitimate social political force for God’s justice in the world.我们这样做，因为它是困难得多想，教会本身作为一个合法的社会的政治力量为上帝的公义，在世界上。 It is simply a lot less work to support Barak Obama for president than it is to lead our churches into being living communities of righteousness, justice and God’s Mission in the world.这只不过是少很多的工作来支持巴拉克奥巴马总统比，这是导致我们的教堂到生活社区的正义，正义和上帝的使命，在世界上。
And still more…还有更多的…
I know some expect me to get on the Obama bandwagon, especially those who know of my criticisms of the current president.我知道有些期望我上了奥巴马潮流，尤其是那些谁知道我的批评现任总统。 Yet I continue to want to press for the church to be the primary political instrument of true justice in the world.但我继续希望新闻界为教会是首要的政治工具真正的正义，在世界上。 The church must be FIRST as initiator for social justice, from which we can then push for governmental cooperation.教会首先必须为引发社会公义，从其中我们便可以推动政府间合作。 I have always been concerned about the marginal status given the church as the foundational center for justice in society by my various spokesmen/women/friends of the Emerging Church (I hope to review Brian McLaren’s我一直关心的边际地位，由于教会为中心的基础正义在社会上我的各种代言人/女性/朋友新兴教会（我希望审查布赖恩麦克拉伦的 Everything Must Change一切必须改变 in this light).在这轻） 。 I know many fear fundamentalist sectarianism.我知道许多人担心原教旨主义宗派主义。 I fear the democratic capitalist Symbolic Order (ala Foucault) shall subsume us all.我担心民主的资本主义的象征秩序（助理法律顾问福柯）应subsume我们所有人。 More and more however, people like Jim Wallis are seeing the insights of a tempered vision of what is possible in national politics (see越来越多的，但是人们一样，吉姆沃利斯看到的见解一个锻炼的愿景是什么可能在国家政治（见 The Great Awakening伟大的觉醒 ). ） 。 More and more, people are understanding a new possibility for a Hauerwas radical politics (see for example Mark Van Steenwyk越来越多的，人民是理解了新的可能性，为hauerwas激进的政治（例如，见马克范steenwyk here这里 and和 here这里 ). ） 。 SO GO AHEAD AND BY ALL MEANS VOTE FOR OBAMA, but do not allow false ideology to sap our energy or distract us from the task of being God’s people, his embodied Kingdom in submission to His Lordship, birthing forth His justice amidst the world that was made possible in His death and resurrection until He comes.所以要大胆向前并且运用一切手段投票奥巴马，但不要让虚假的意识形态与SAP ，我们的能源或分散我们的任务，被上帝的人，他体现了英国在提交给他lordship ，分娩，提出了他的司法中的世界这是可能在他的死和复活，直到他的到来。
There is a lot more in the article…and I’ve got to say that I’m tracking with him on this stuff.有很多更在文章中… …和我已经到了说我跟踪与他就这个东西。 We see a rising Christian Left that is likely to fall into all the same traps of the Christian Right.我们看到一个崛起的基督教离开很可能落入所有相同的陷阱，基督教右翼。 And in the midst of this shift among Evangelicals, is the Church learning to be the Church?并在正处于这一转变之间的福音，是教会学习要教会？ Maybe my hope in the Church as the primary location for Christian political action is misplaced?也许我希望在教会里作为首要的位置，为基督教的政治行动是不必要的？ After all,毕竟， Tony Jones托尼琼斯 , in his reasonable response to David’s article writes:在他的合理的回应，朱的文章中写道：
David and Mark: You accuse any of us who have hope that a US president might actually be an ally in overcoming the disparities in society of being blinded by our love for him.大卫和马克：你指责我们任何人谁，希望有一位美国总统的可能，其实是一个盟友，在克服差距，在社会上被蒙蔽我们的爱他。 But I wonder: Is your ecclesiophila blinding you to the fact that the church has rarely been the counter-cultural force that you want it to be?但我怀疑：是您的ecclesiophila致盲你一个事实，就是教会已很少被反文化的力量，您希望它是什么？ I hope you’ll see in my book, David, that I think the church’s role in society is unique and important, but I’m also a realist that it’s always going to be just as screwed up as it is now.我希望你会看到我的书里，大卫，我认为，教会在社会中的作用是独特和重要的，但我也是一个现实主义者，它总是去一样拧起来，因为这是现在。 The church is great.教会是很大的。 I love it.我爱它。 But it’s just not the end-all-be-all.但它的正义不是终结-所有即将所有。 We also have to be engaged in society in myriad other ways: jobs, politics, hospitals, volunteerism, athletics, etc. All sphere’s are God’s.我们也必须从事在社会上无数其他方式：职位，政治，医院，志愿服务，体育等所有领域的是上帝的。
This is dialog is what blogging is all about!这是对话是什么Blogging是所有约！ Here we have two men that I know and respect–both very thoughtful people–pinpointing a clear area of disagreement.在这里，我们有两名男子，我知道和尊重，无论是非常体贴的人-针对一个明确的领域的分歧。 I am clearly with David on this stuff, but I appreciate Tony’s perspective.我很清楚大卫就这东西，但我明白托尼的角度来看。
I could say more here, but I will instead chime in on the conversation over there, and I encourage you to我可以说更多的在这里，但我会附和，而是在对会话那里，我鼓励你 jump into the fray跳转到fray ! ！ And, if you want to add more fuel to the fire, check out the conversation brewing over an email Tony recently和，如果您要添加更多燃料，向消防，签出的交谈酝酿超过1电子邮件托尼最近 posted on his blog张贴在他的博客 . 。
for further reading .为进一步读。 . 。 . 。
- None Found无发现
I think the crux of this is the unreasonableness of Christianity.我认为症结所在，这是不合理的基督教。 If it were a matter of pragmatics, well, screw the faith.如果它的事，语用学的，那么，螺杆的信念。 Do for yourself and be done.不为自己和工作要做。
But to dedicate your life to a cause that ensures personal persecution, give sacrificially of your time and resources, loving those that wish to do you harm, forgiving those who have harmed you, restoring relationships beyond repair, healing impairments beyond the reaches of medicine and therapy, and living righteously; does that sound like realism?但特别能奉献您的一生的事业，以确保个人的迫害，给予sacrificially您的时间和资源，爱那些希望这样做你的伤害，原谅那些谁伤害了你，恢复的关系，无法修复，愈合障碍超越达到医药和治疗和生活理直气壮;是否听起来像是现实主义？
The only thing the church has going for it is it’s lack of realism.唯一的事，教会去，因为这是它的缺乏的现实主义。 To make a better church does not mean making it more practical, even though that yields better short term results.作出更好的教会，并不意味着使之更加切合实际，即使收益率更好的短期结果。 It means making it precisely as impractical and insane as it was meant to be, filling a niche that is not capable of being filled by any government or institution.这意味着决策，它恰恰是不切实际的和疯狂的，因为它的意思，填补了利基这是不能够被填补任何政府或机构。
I can’t imagine the Apostles trying to change the Roman Empire thru politics and yet we are instructed by Scripture to pray for the emperor and pay our taxes to him.我不能想象使徒们正试图改变罗马帝国，通过政治和然而，我们所指示的经文祈祷，为天皇和支付我们的税给他。 We are living in his domain, after all.我们正生活在他的网域，毕竟。
“The Kingdom of God does not consist in words, but in power.” The world (empire, system, Babylon, whatever) needs to hear what we have to say prophetically, but more importantly, it needs to see God working thru us. “上帝的王国并不在口头上，但在电力”世界（帝国，制度，巴比伦，无论）的需要，听到什么，我们必须说prophetically ，但更重要的是，它需要看见上帝通过我们的工作。 This is more than social programs or support of nationalized health care; it is worship of God and good works that glorify Him.这是以上的社会程序或支持国有化的医疗保健;这是崇拜上帝和好作品，歌颂他。 It is Pentecost.这是圣灵降临节。
My kids keep asking me, “do you like Obama?” Sure, I like him, but that doesn’t mean I’ll vote for him.我的孩子不断地问我， “你喜欢奥巴马” ？肯定的是，我喜欢他，但这并不意味着我会投他的票。 The political system is designed to perpetuate itself and support the “woman” that rides on its back.政治制度的目的是延续自己和支持“女人” ，搭载在它的回。
[…] (h/t to Revolution in Jesusland and Jesus Manifesto) […] [ … … ] （八/吨，以革命的jesusland和耶稣宣言） [ … … ]
thanks for posting this Mark.感谢发布此马克。 I totally agree with Fitch here, at least insofar as it is ‘important’ that we as American’s play into the role of ‘politics as the Big Other.’ But then again I disagree to a point, I think you’ve seen my recent endorsement of Obama so I won’t hide that fact, but I am a Quaker for heaven’s sake, I believe in the most radical politics of all - so how does this play out?我完全同意，惠誉在这里，至少就因为它是'重要的' ，我们作为美国人的发挥到的作用， '政治为大。 ' ，但再我不同意这一点，我想你已经看到我最近通过奥巴马所以我不会隐瞒这一事实，但我是贵格会为天堂之起见，我相信在最激进的政治所有-如何使这是否发挥出来呢？ Am I just selling out?我刚才卖？ I don’t blame people for not voting, I see that as a valid Christian response to the political order.我不会责怪的人没有投票，我看到作为一个有效的回应基督教的政治秩序。 But I also see that voting, and endorsing may be rather subversive if it is with done with a mind towards a new hope and possibility for American Identity within the Global world, and with a mind towards the fact that the kingdom is coming and it is the church’s responsibility to help this process (while unfortunately it often times gets in the way).但我也看到，投票，并赞同可能，而不是颠覆如果是与所做的心态迈向一个新的希望和可能性的身份为美国在全球的世界，与心目中对事实，即英国是未来，这是教会的责任，以帮助这一进程， （虽然可惜，很多时候，在获得的方式） 。
I don’t think by endorsing we have to automatically be seen as naive (to the fact that politics in America is an Ideology), nor do I think that by voting we are somehow playing into a binary of church vs. the world.我不认为赞同我们已自动被看作是幼稚的（这一事实，即政治在美国是一种意识形态） ，我也不认为是用投票方式，我们是有点玩到一个二进制的教会与世界的。 Rather, the church continues on its way, knowing the powers are fallen, yet the church is outrageous enough to still hope for the powers to be redeemed.相反，教会继续就其方式，知道权力下降，但教会是离谱，足以仍希望为权力，以赎回。
Oh and the Jones comment bugs me a lot. OH和琼斯的评论我的错误了很多。 He’s played into the Mainstream Christian hegemony which continues to overlook the radical reformation as a faithful tradition that has really has been a cultural force (I’ll refrain from playing into (his assumption) that the Niebuhrian category of radical reformation equals ‘counter-culture’).他的发挥融入主流基督教霸权继续忽视激进的改革作为一个忠实的传统，确实已成为文化的力量（我会不要玩到（上任）表示， niebuhrian类的激进改革等于'计数器-文化' ） 。
it seems to me that the word “practical” has become a bugaboo, like “pragmatic”.在我看来，改为“实际”已成为bugaboo一样， “务实” 。
I see the matter as not a rivalry between Church and State but whether Xtns can and shd participate in the administration and reform of the state’s mandate to use the threat of violence to constrain human sinfulness.我看到的事情，不是一个竞争的教会与国家之间，但是否xtns可以和可持续发展的参与，在政府和国家改革的任务要使用暴力威胁来约束人类的罪恶。 This has and does play a role in the ability of the Church to overcome evil thru self-sacrificial giving.这和是否中发挥作用的能力，教会，以克服邪恶透过自我的牺牲让。
When people do protect their interests, they are not necessarily denying God’s Law, inasmuch as we are called to love our neighbor as our selves.当人们这样做保障他们的利益，他们不一定否认真主的法律，因为我们是所谓的热爱我们的邻邦，我们守土有责。 This implies the right to love ourselves.这意味着权利爱自己。 What matters is that we participate in politics apart from our own self-interests but not to exclusion of such.什么事情是我们参与政治，除了我们自身的利益，但不排斥这样的。 People can and do support missions work with their wealth gained/supported by the status quo arrangements of the state.人可以做支助团的工作与他们的财富获得/支持维持现状的安排，该国。 We can value that, while at the same time critiquing how people have become far too self-centered.我们可以价值，而在同一时间，批评的人如何，已成为太以自我为中心。
I agree that it will be bad for us to spend too much time on the upcoming prez election and need to check my own tendencies in that regard.我同意，这将是坏，我们花太多的时间对即将举行的选举和prez需要检查我自己的倾向，在这方面。 I’ve been hoping that Mark wd share with others in his sphere of influence about my own idea of Project Democratic Renewal, which I think wd change the dynamics of US politics and help provide better options for Christian political activism, particularly of the type that opposes the Constantinization of Xty.我一直希望马克的WD与他人分享在他的势力范围约我自己的想法项目的民主重建，我想的WD变化的动态，美国政治和帮助，提供更好的选择，为基督教的政治活动，尤其是该类型反对constantinization的xty 。
I don’t know if that makes any sense, but the significance of voting or not voting is part of what’s in debate.我不知道如果这使得任何意义，但意义投票或不投票的一部分，什么的，在辩论。 I perceive non-voting as implicitly accepting the status quo and by no means freeing oneself from the Matrix. i的看法，非投票含蓄地接受现状及绝非解放自己从矩阵。 I believe that we shd have house-church models for becoming swing-voters pushing selectively issues that will assist with our dominant modes of missions without sucking up too much time and energy.我相信我们的可持续发展有内务教会的模式，成为摆选民推选择性的问题，这将有助于我们的主导模式，任务没有吮吸了太多的时间和精力。
I wonder how this moderating perspective seems so missing in these discussions?我不知道如何放缓的角度来看，这似乎使失踪，在这些讨论中？
dlw
People are always more protective of their privilege than they are of their right.人民永远是更多的保护他们的特权，比他们的他们的权利。 They would willingly sacrifice a right to gain a privilege.他们会心甘情愿地牺牲，有权获得一种特权。 When asked many would prefer to live in a world where they earned $100,000 to the average $50,000 than a world where they earned $150,000 to the average $ $200,000.当记者问很多人会宁愿生活在一个世界里，他们所赚取的一十〇点○○○万美元，以平均五万美元比的世界里，他们所赚取的一十五点零零零万美元，以平均元二十零万美元。 Just so long as they come out ahead of the Joneses (no pun intended here).刚才，只要他们出来，走在攀比（没有双关语打算在这里） 。
The piece of the pie language is very useful in illustrating the point.一幅馅饼语言是非常有用的在说明这一点。
As Christians we will be unpopular because we point to the emptiness of privilege, and illustrate its illegitimacy.作为基督徒，我们会不得人心的，因为我们一点空虚的特权，并说明其不合法。
Nathanael Snow拿雪
ndsnow@gmail.com
Well, that’sa natural rights approach.那么， that'sa天赋人权的做法。
My pov is to not frame the issue so starkly.我pov是不是框架的问题，因此，赤裸裸地。 I think if we win people to following Xst with all their heart, minds, strengths and souls that they’ll be willing to relinquish or rededicate their “privileges” and some of their “rights” to manifesting Jesus before others more authentically.我认为如果我们赢得了人民，以下列xst与所有他们的心脏，头脑，优势和灵魂，他们将愿意放弃或重新他们的“特权”和他们的一些“权利” ，以体现耶稣之前，其他人更真实。
In the meanwhile, we can emph that Xtn unity is not about political solidarity and take a minimalist approach to pointing people to ways they can think about their political actions so that they’ll be better integrated with the Great Commish在此期间，我们可以emph认为， xtn团结，是不是关于政治团结，并采取最低限度的方式指向人的方式他们可以想一想，他们的政治行动，使他们将更好地整合与伟大commish
dlw
[…] been enjoying some recent reading about the elections (here, here and here) and am finding the varying perspectives stimulating. [ … … ]得到最近的一些读有关选举（在这里，这里和这里）和上午找到不同的角度刺激。 Then tonight, as I was reading […]然后今晚，因为我读[ … … ]
dlw, dlw ，
How is a natural rights approach inconsistent with the gospel?如何是一个很自然的权利的做法，不符合福音？ My moniker, juris-naturalist, means natural law.我的绰号，法学-自然，是指自然法。 Is there not some consistency within human nature which can be observed and predicted?是不是有一些一致性的人性，这可以观察到，并预言？ I predict people will act in their self-interest.我预测人的行为将在其自身利益。 The question is whether they will focus on the short run or the long run.问题是他们是否将集中于短期而言，或长远之计。
As for actual Christian Action, we ought to fulfill the gospel.至于基督教的实际行动，我们应该履行的福音。 Care for the least of these.照顾最不发达国家的这些。 But we must renounce the use of the state in achieving that objective.但我们必须放弃使用国家在实现这一目标。 We must be peculiar in doing it on our own, voluntarily, and sacrificially.我们必须在特殊的做我们自己的，自愿的，和sacrificially 。
Any action that the church can take in the political sphere ought to be to make room for itself by destroying all political privileges.任何行动，教会可以采取在政治领域，必须以腾出空间给自己，摧毁了所有的政治特权。 The first step is to renounce our own privileges, and then to make the legitimate argument that privileges lead to inefficiency and injustice.第一步是要放弃自己的特权，然后作出的合法的说法特权导致的低效率和不公正。 Examples abound.例子比比皆是。 The arguments for anarcho-Capitlaism leave out the poor.论据anarcho - capitlaism离开了穷人。 The Christian can make this argument only if he has first assumed full responsibility for the least of these.基督教可以使这个论点只是，如果他有第一承担全部责任，至少这些。
The arguments for Objectivism leave out the needy and the mediocre.论据客观离开了需要和平庸。 I am not concerned about the leeches, but the poor can be served best by Christians realizing the fullness of their capabilities and using them in service to their One King and Lawgiver.我不关心水蛭，但穷人可以服务最好的基督徒，实现丰满自己的能力，并利用他们在服务，以他们的一景和lawgiver 。 This is the form of human greatness that even Ayn Rand could not fathom, a man flowing in the power of the Holy Spirit, not to his own glory, but to the glory of his Creator.这是形式的人类的伟大，即使蓝德无法量度，一名男子在流动的权力，圣灵，而不是他自己的荣耀，而是为了荣耀，他的创作者。
Nathanael Snow拿雪
ndsnow@gmail.com
I’m not saying it’s wholly inconsistent with the gospel and what we’re saying is not that different, we just bring different vocabularies and somewhat diff root-metaphors.我不是说这是完全不符合福音和我们现在说的是不是不同，我们只带来不同的词汇和有所差异的根源-隐喻。 As such, I’m saying it’sa diff approach than the one I use, because my understanding is rooted in the “Creation, Fall and Redemption” metanarrative that applies to all human relations with Creation and God.这样，我说，这是差异的做法，要比我的使用，因为我的理解是根植于“创作，秋天和赎回” metanarrative适用于所有的人际关系与创造和上帝。 I don’t think “redemption” is natural and I don’t think we observe empirically what “human nature” is really meant to be apart from what is gradually taking place because of the advancement of the kingship of God.我不认为“赎回”是很自然的，我不认为我们观察的实证什么“人性”是真正的意思是，除了从什么是逐渐发生的，因为提高了王权神。 I also believe that the long-run and short-run are analytical conventions whose “value-added” are variable….我也相信，长远而言，短期来说，是分析公约，其“增值”是可变的… … 。
Your approach seems to dichotomize politics and economics.您的做法，似乎dichotomize政治和经济。 This is also a misperception.这也是一种误解。 Microeconomic theory builds on property rights which are a direct function of the manner in which the legit monopoly in the use of violence, or the sword of the state, is practically used.微观经济理论是建立在产权，这是直接的功能以何种方式在合法的垄断，使用暴力，或剑的国家，几乎是用。 As such, it is a matter of selective perception, or snowjobbing ourselves somewhat, to renounce the use of state.因此，这是一个选择性的看法，或snowjobbing自己有点，放弃使用状态。
We use the state whenever we make economic decisions, including the purchase of Mark Van Steenwyck’s book that’s going to be coming out…(That capitalist…!)我们使用国家每当我们作出经济决策，包括购买马克范steenwyck的书，这将会走出来… … （资本主义… ！ ）
I’m too busy right now to respond a lot until maybe next weekend, but do read my project democratic renewal writeup…我太忙，现在回应了很多，直到也许下周末，但看过我的项目民主党重建writeup …
dlw
Funny, Fitch seems, at first, to be moving along just fine.搞笑，惠誉看来，在第一，提出沿刚才的罚款。 Then he substitutes “the Church” for Obama.然后，他的替代品“教会”奥巴马。 Funny, because he seems conscious of a (perhaps necessary) distantiation between political subjects and one Big Other, but oblivious to his overidentification with “the Church”.搞笑，因为他似乎意识到了一个（也许是有必要的话） distantiation之间的政治科目和其他一大，但无视他的overidentification与“教会” 。
Sure, but he has theological reasons for making that move.肯定，但他却神学的原因作出这一举动。 David isn’t oblivious to his hopes in the Church.大卫是不会漠视他的希望寄托在教会。 In his thinking, if I may feebly try to speak fof him, one cannot adequately speak of the transformative role of Christ’s Spirit in the world apart from the church.在他的思想，如果我可以feebly尝试发言fof他，一不能充分发言的变革作用，基督的精神，在世界上，除了教会。
dlw, dlw ，
I think you are saying that you believe eschatologically that there is an earthly redemption, including the redemption of government.我认为你说你相信eschatologically有一个俗世的赎回，包括赎回的政府。 Is that right?是吗？ I don’t think the existing governments will be redeemed.我不认为现有的各国政府将赎回。 I think they will be replaced by the only legitimate law-giver.我认为他们将取代的唯一合法法律赐予。
I agree that redemption is not natural, and I don’t think that natural law has to rely upon it.我同意赎回是不自然的，我不认为自然法要依靠它。 Does that mean that redemption and thus God gets left out of the equation?这是否意味赎回，从而得到上帝的遗漏了该方程？ I think it does in terms of what we advocate for the state, but not in terms of what we insist upon for the church.我认为它在什么样的条款我们提倡为国家，但不是在条款是什么，我们坚持为教会。
I have absolutely no hope left in the state.我绝对没有希望留在国务院。 It does mostly good, but that good is just a second-best solution.但这大多是好的，但良好的只是一个第二最好的解决方法。 We can do good things, and sometimes grace reaches through and does something purely good and non-self-interested through an unregenerate individual, but apart from regeneration the best any human is capable of is the second-best solution of the market.我们可以做的好东西，有时甚至达到宽限期，并通过一些纯粹是良好的和非自治兴趣，通过一unregenerate个人，但除了再生的最佳任何人类是有能力，是第二最好的解决办法的市场份额。 So for pagans, the market is the first-best solution, and the best we can hope for them, and it leaves no space for arbitrary laws or idols.因此，为异教徒，市场是第一最好的解决办法，最好的，我们可以希望，对于他们来说，它没有叶片的空间任意的法律或偶像。 I suppose my dichotomy is in there somewhere.我想我的二分法是在有某处。
Perhaps property rights are impossible without a legitimate monopolizer of force.或许知识产权是不可能的合法monopolizer武力。 I fall back on judicial monarchism. i依傍关于司法君主。 Let there be judges such as there were before Saul became king, and such as there were after the exile.让有法官，例如有前娑罗双树，成为国王，例如有后流亡国外。 Let there not be an arbitrary law giver.让有不是一个任意法的赐予。
I perceive in scripture precedent for common law systems for discovery of and enforcement of natural law. i的看法，在经文的先例，为共同的法律制度，发现和执行自然法。 Beyond that, I see no room for the state.除此之外，我看不出室，为国家。
As for IP, we should forget about it altogether, it is just a matter of time anyway.至于叶，我们应该忘记它共有，它只是一个时间的问题，无论如何。 Patronage will be the incentive for production of information in the future, not per-unit sales.载客量将鼓励生产信息，在未来，而不是每单位销售。 No one pays us to comment on blogs, and yet we both experience gains, plus all the readers gain spillovers.没有人自付我们的评论，博客，但我们的经验，双方的收益，再加上所有的读者获得外溢效应。 If it is worth knowing it can be learnt for free.如果这是值得知道可以据悉，免费的。
I’m trying to hold my own here, but I don’t think I’ve committed any intellectual dishonesties.我尝试举行我自己在这里，但我不认为我已经犯下任何智力dishonesties 。
Nathanael Snow拿雪
if a president wants to do some of the things the church is about, it can only do it through oppressing someone else.如果总统想要做的一些事，教会是，它只能这样做，通过压迫他人。 they have take.他们采取。 we are asked to give.我们要求给。
the body of christ offers His kingdom to the world.基督的身体提供他的英国向世界。 a government is going to offer socialism.政府要提供的社会主义。 let’s be realistic, when a government offers the idea of health care for all, equal wages and free education, it can only do it through oppression of one person or another.让我们面对现实，当一个政府提供的想法保健，工资平等和免费教育，它只能这样做，通过压迫的一人或另一。 it isnt the same as sharing all things in common.它isn't一样，分享所有的东西，在共同的。
when the kingdom of god offers hope, freedom, and change it offers it to all.当神的国度带来了希望，自由，和改变它提供给所有。 it doesnt have to take from one and push someone else down to raise another.它的doesn't必须采取从一个推动别人下来提出另一项。 it may ask us to give and be generous and sacrifice, but it isnt heavy handed oppression.它可能会要求我们提供的慷慨牺牲，但它isn't沉重的移交压迫。 we give and share and care out of the love and grace of god and as a follower of christ and his kingdom.我们给予和分享和照顾，出于对爱和上帝的恩典和作为一个跟随基督和他的王国。
make no mistake - socialism is no more a partner of god’s kingdom as democracy is.使没有错-是社会主义，没有更多的伙伴，上帝的英国民主。 arent we just trading the religious right for the left? arent我们只是交易的宗教权利为左？
Exactly right Joe: a Socialist or Capitalist, Fascist or Anarchist, if it’s not Christ-centric then it will not last or bring forth joy, hope and loving-kindness.正确乔：社会主义或资本主义，法西斯或无政府主义，如果没有基督为中心，然后它不会上或带来的喜悦，希望和爱-爱心。
A previous post Nathanael Snow wrote:先前后拿雪写道：
“People are always more protective of their privilege than they are of their right. “人民永远是更多的保护他们的特权，比他们的他们的权利。 They would willingly sacrifice a right to gain a privilege.”他们会心甘情愿地牺牲有权获得的特权“ 。
As Christians we will be unpopular because we point to the emptiness of privilege, and illustrate its illegitimacy.”作为基督徒，我们会不得人心的，因为我们一点空虚的特权，并说明其不合法“ 。
Very well written.很清楚的书面。 People prefer ‘petty perks of power’ over almost anything else.人们宁愿'小动作福利的权力' ，几乎超过一切。
This is why The Church and The State look so damn similar; uniforms/special seating/monikers/titles and lets not forget transportation expenses.这就是为什么教会和国家的期待，所以可恶类似;制服/特别座位/ Moniker的/职称，并让不能忘记的交通费。 How about a如何约1
driver?司机？ People don’t change just they’re in inside the institutional church, that人民不改变只是他们在体制内的教堂，
org.组织。 does not truly transform us only christ can do that.没有真正转换，我们只有基督可以这样做。
In defense of Obama, I will say that the source of his cash is small donations在国防部的奥巴马，我会说的来源，他的现金是小捐款
under one hundred dollars.根据100美元。 This may bode well for true representational democracy.这可能是一个好兆头真正具有代表性的民主。 I like him, and I’m voting for him.我喜欢他，我投票支持他。 That said, even if we do manage说，即使我们这样做管理
to transform gov into something more fair and responsive, it is still, at the end of the day just government.改造政务到的东西更公平和回应，它仍然是，在这一天结束只是政府。
Joe Tr:if a president wants to do some of the things the church is about, it can only do it through oppressing someone else.乔罗西斯：如果总统想要做的一些事，教会是，它只能这样做，通过压迫他人。 they have take.他们采取。 we are asked to give.我们要求给。
dlw: Yoder puts it differently in his “the state in the new testament”. dlw ：厂家优化的说法不同，他在“国家在新约圣经” 。 The state uses sinful means to restrain human sinfulness.国家利用罪孽深重的手段来约束人类的罪恶。 The church overcomes sin with self-sacrificial love.教会，克服了单仲偕与自我奉献之爱。 The question then is whether the church may also participate in the administration/reform of how the Sword of the State is wielded.问题是，是否教会也可参加政府当局/改革如何剑，国家是挥舞。
It is true that every time policy is changed, there are winners and losers, but this does not mean that the losers are being oppressed.这是事实，每次的政策是改变，有赢家和输家，但是这并不意味着输现正被压迫者。
JT: the body of christ offers His kingdom to the world.特鲁利：基督的身体提供他的英国向世界。 a government is going to offer socialism.政府要提供的社会主义。 let’s be realistic, when a government offers the idea of health care for all, equal wages and free education, it can only do it through oppression of one person or another.让我们面对现实，当一个政府提供的想法保健，工资平等和免费教育，它只能这样做，通过压迫的一人或另一。 it isnt the same as sharing all things in common.它isn't一样，分享所有的东西，在共同的。
dlw: Let’s be self-reflective. dlw ：让我们自我反思。 Socialism is basically a swear-word in much of our country.社会主义基本上是一个宣誓词在我们的许多国家。 The issue is the “fairness” of the rules/way in which the monopoly of legit-violence is wielded.问题是“公平”的规则/以何种方式垄断合法暴力是挥舞。 Socialism* is first and foremost about saying that the rules shd be applied to all individuals equally, not that equal outcomes must be guaranteed.社会主义*是国家的首要约说，该规则的可持续发展的适用于所有个人，同样，而不是平等的成果必须得到保证。 (Note * diffs what I am speaking about here from Socialism as what was practiced in FSU or as is disintegrating in much of Europe.) （注* diffs什么我谈到这里，从社会主义作为是什么实行的家庭支助股或作为是分崩离析，在欧洲大部分地区） 。
JT: when the kingdom of god offers hope, freedom, and change it offers it to all.特鲁利：当神的国度带来了希望，自由，和改变它提供给所有。 it doesnt have to take from one and push someone else down to raise another.它的doesn't必须采取从一个推动别人下来提出另一项。 it may ask us to give and be generous and sacrifice, but it isnt heavy handed oppression.它可能会要求我们提供的慷慨牺牲，但它isn't沉重的移交压迫。 we give and share and care out of the love and grace of god and as a follower of christ and his kingdom.我们给予和分享和照顾，出于对爱和上帝的恩典和作为一个跟随基督和他的王国。
dlw: Well, we need to have private property rights to constrain our human sinfulness and facilitate the division of labor. dlw ：好的，我们需要有私有财产的权利，限制了我们人类的罪恶和促进分工。 The issue with politics is then often a matter of changes in private property rights.问题与政治，然后往往是一个问题的变化，在私有产权。 Now, our devotion to God and desire to advance the kingship of God shd lead us to release our own private property in displays of hospitality and peace-making, but the change of private property isn’t the same as “oppression”.现在，我们奉献给上帝和愿望，推动王位上帝的可持续发展，带领我们释放我们自己的私有财产在显示好客与和平的决策，但变化的私有财产是不一样的“压迫” 。 The latter has more to do with when a small group dominates the state to its own benefit and the burden of many.后者更多地与当一小群占主导地位的国家其自身的利益和负担，许多。
JT:make no mistake - socialism is no more a partner of god’s kingdom as democracy is.特鲁利：使没有错-是社会主义，没有更多的伙伴，上帝的英国民主。 arent we just trading the religious right for the left? arent我们只是交易的宗教权利为左？
dlw: Or are we taking missional holism seriously by acting politcally apart from our own perceived intere$t$. dlw ：或者是我们考虑missional整体认真署理politcally除了我们自己的知觉intere元，吨元。
dlw
Mark,马克，
let me know…让我知道…
dlw
dlw - i am not so concerned about winners and losers. dlw -我不是这么关注赢家和输家。 what i am saying is that government does not reflect the kingdom of god and cannot be a partner with it.我的意思是，政府并不反映上帝的王国，并不能成为合作伙伴。 they have 2 different agendas and methods of operation.他们有2个不同的议程和运作方式。
one does wield the sword and the other the cross. 1是否执掌剑和其他交叉。 i am yet to see where the two are reconciled in scripture.我还没有看到的地方，两者调和，在经文。 there are plenty of examples in history.有很多的例子，在历史上。 none of which worked out too well for the church.其中没有工作过，以及为教会。 it’s funny in the marriage of church and state, the only one asked to sacrifice is the church.它的搞笑，在婚姻的教会与国家，只有一个要求牺牲是教会。
what is legit violence?什么是合法的暴力行为呢？
oppression - Main Entry: op·pres·sion压迫-主要项目：作品介绍，锡永
Pronunciation: &-’pre-sh&n读音： ＆ -'前的S H＆ n
Function: noun功能：名词
: an unjust or excessive exercise of power: as a : unlawful, wrongful, or corrupt exercise of authority by a public official acting under color of authority that causes a person harm b : dishonest, unfair, wrongful, or burdensome conduct by corporate directors or majority shareholders that entitles minority shareholders to compel involuntary dissolution of the corporation c : inequality of bargaining power resulting in one party’s lack of ability to negotiate or exercise meaningful choice ：一个不公正的或过度行使权力：作为一个：非法，不当，或舞弊行使权力的公职人员根据颜色的权力，造成一个人的伤害乙：不诚实，不公平，不法行为，或繁琐的进行，由公司董事或多数股东享有少数股东迫使自愿解散该公司的c ：不平等的议价能力，导致一党的缺乏谈判能力或行使有意义的选择
democracy is not exempt from oppressing people and neither is socialism.民主是不能免除从压迫人民的，也不是社会主义。
i dont know if being socialist is missional holism. i不知道，如果社会主义是missional整体性。 i think it is just that, being socialist.我认为这是刚才，正在社会主义。 for better or worse.为更好或更坏。 living missionally has nothing to do with the government taking from me to give to someone else.生活missionally完全没有与该国政府考虑从我给别人。 it is me sacrificing and giving of my own free will in obedience to christ, not obama.这是我牺牲了，让我自己的自由意志在服从基督，而不是奥巴马。
However, Obama’s Christian profession is absent from this discussion.不过，奥巴马的基督教界缺席这次讨论。 Since we’re going to have a president, whether we think it serves the Kingdom or not, should we not at least look for one with some interest in the Everlasting?既然我们要去有一个总统，是否我们认为，服务于英国或没有，难道不应该至少找一个与有兴趣在永恒的呢？
On a different note, after 20 years in political work, I’ve retired because I think, generally, the QUEST for power can only yield illegitimate power: as a friend of mine says, it’s the difference between trying to be the “power over” and accepting one’s lot as the “power under”.对不同的注意，经过20多年在政治工作，我已经退休，因为我认为，一般来说，追求权力，只能产量非婚生子女的权力：作为一个朋友，排雷说，它的区别试图以“权力“ ，并接受一的地段作为”下的权力“ 。 Whether you like his theology or not, Dr. Greg Boyd’s你是否喜欢他的神学或没有，博士格雷格博伊德的 “Myth of A Christian Nation” “神话是一个基督教国家” has great analysis about this topic.有很大的分析有关此主题的。
What ever happened to turning the other cheek?什么发生，把其他的脸颊？