Rebellion from Within从内部叛乱
Written by Mark Van Steenwyk : October 11, 2005写的马克范steenwyk ： 2005年10月11日
I recently picked up最近，我拿起 Nation of Rebels 国家的反政府武装 a book arguing that the American counter-culture is dead. Our counter cultures have been embraced by the consumer culture.一本书，认为美国的反文化是死，我们的反文化，已接受消费者的文化。
So much of my generation’s re-envisioning of church is wrapped up in embracing the counter-cultural nature of the Gospel. That’s cool. Unfortunately, many churches do counter cultural things in the conventional sense–they embrace an edgier style and challenge the status quo with no clear reason for doing so. This is a sort of rebellion of externals.这么多的我这一代的转口货品中构想的教会是结束了在概括性的反文化性质的福音，这是冷静的。不幸的是，许多教堂做反文化的东西在传统意义上，他们拥抱一edgier作风和挑战现状，没有明确这样做的理由，这是一种反叛的外部。 "We reject the status quo because it doesn’t seem to fit. So we’ll do things that seem counter-cultural–like get tatoos and play edgy music, and hang out at bars." “我们拒绝现状，因为它似乎并不合适，所以我们会做的事情，似乎反文化一样得到tatoos和发挥edgy音乐，和坑在酒吧” 。 I’ve known many Christians who revel in drinking beer because it is against the evangelical culture. I’ve known Christians who tatoo themselves or get pierced because they perceive it to be an act of liberty. These sort of things are counter-cultural in a sense…but they aren’t counter cultural in the Christian sense. Most of what Christians consider to be counter cultural are no longer counter culutral.我知道很多基督徒谁在狂欢喝啤酒，因为这是对福音事工促进会，文化，我已经被称为基督徒谁纹身自己或得到戳穿了，因为他们察觉到这是一个行为的自由。这类的东西，是反文化在意识… …但他们不是反文化在基督教的常识。大部分什么基督徒认为是反文化不再是反culutral 。
Let me be clear–it isn’t that drinking or tatooing are wrong. They just aren’t exactly world shaking. But the Gospel is. And sometimes we let externals shape our sense of being a counter culture, rather than embracing what it means to be a Gospel community. Truly embracing the Gospel is counter cultural and will always be so–for the Gospel runs counter to human nature. The kingdom cannot be seen naturally. When we embrace the Kingdom, it will always be a counter cultural act. And when we do this, our sense of being counter cultural will flow from within. When we understand that, then we can quibble over elements of style.让我清楚-这并不是说饮酒或tatooing是错误的，他们只不正是世界摇头，但福音。有时我们的外部形状，让我们的意识，作为一个反文化，而不是概括性的是什么意思是一个福音社区。真正概括性的福音是反文化，并会永远是这样，为福音的，违背了人性。王国无法被观察到，当然，当我们拥抱英国，它将始终是一个反文化行为。当我们这样做，我们的意识正在反文化将流从内部时，我们明白，那么我们可以狡辩超过要素的作风。
for further reading .为进一步读。 . 。 . 。
- None Found无发现
Like, I went to the mall to buy my super cool Goth stuff at this chain store that’s like in every other mall, but I didn’t go the Mall of America because it’s, like, so *commercial*.想，我去商场买我的超酷哥特的东西在这个连锁店认为的一样，在每一个其他商场，但我没有去美国购物中心，因为它的一样， ，所以*商业*. I want to be different just like my friends!我想有所不同，就像我的朋友们！ We sit around at the church coffee shop, which is kind of edgy that a church has a coffee shop, and we roll our eyes at the old people, like, over thirty, and talk about how they are so behind the new wave of God.我们坐在左右，在教堂，咖啡馆里，这是种edgy一个教会有一个咖啡馆里，我们和我们的眼睛轧辊在旧人，如超过30 ，并讲述了她们如何使背后的新一波的上帝。 But not ‘New Wave’, because that was so ’80’s.但不是'新一波' ，因为这是使'80 '第 By the way, why do I hear Ska music on Christian radio, but not on secular?由的方式，为什么我听到ska音乐对基督教广播电台，但不是世俗？ Any way, are you telling me that just because I act differently from the status quo I’m not nesessarily being counter-culture?以任何方式，你告诉我，只是因为我的行为有不同的，从现状我不是nesessarily被反文化？ I’ve paid out so much money!我已经支付了这么多钱！ Can I get a refund from my youth Pastor?我可以得到退款从我的青年牧师？
Mr. Mouse…I hear the 80’s preppy look is the new look for the counter-culture.先生鼠标… …我听到80的preppy看看是新的面貌，为反文化。
I was just thinking about this today driving down my street.我只是思考今天拉低我的街。 To be really walking the kingdom, I should be getting to know these people.要真正走王国，我应该结识这些人。 But it’s too scary and I think I really won’t like them.但它的太可怕，我想我真的不喜欢他们。 I am facing a need to repent from my petty fake counter-culture that doesn’t really make changes, but merely makes me feel more accepted by the “cool” people.我面临一个需要悔改从我的零用假反文化，这并不真的作出改变，而只是令我觉得更接受由“酷”的人。
I’ve been giving it some thought and I’ve realized that it’s ok for people to go out and start drinking beer and getting tattoos so long as they try to separate them from our ecclesiology.我已经给它的一些思想和我已经意识到它的确定为人民走出去，并开始喝啤酒，并获得刺青，只要他们试图将它们分开，从我们的教会。
What I’m trying to get at is the fact that we all have to establish our own independence from our parents and institutions that have shaped us.什么我尝试得到的是事实，即我们所有人都必须建立我们自己的独立，从我们的父母和机构，形成了我们。 It’s natural to push away at various points in our lives (let’s not be harsh on teeniebopers or frat house boys because they’re not the only ones).它的自然推开在各点在我们的生活中（让我们不苛刻，对teeniebopers或frat内务男孩，因为他们不是唯一的） 。
It’s ok, in this sense for people to start being “counter cultural” in this sense because they’re showing the conservative church that they have a culture that isn’t necessarily worth keeping in tact.它的确定，在这个意义上的人开始被“反文化”在这个意义上，因为他们正显示保守的教会，他们的文化，并不一定是值得保留在机智。
I think the important thing for me is to understand what we mean by counter-cultural.我认为最重要的事，我是要了解我们的意思是由反文化。 A counter-culture is a culture that is set up in direct contradistinction to another culture.一个反文化是一种文化，是设立在直接对比的另一种文化。 In that sense, maybe there are lots of cultures that are counter-cultural, or at least started that way.在这个意义上，也许有很多的文化是反文化，或至少开始这样做。 I think that better than saying there are no counter-cultures in America is to say that any counter-culture in America is only a sub-culture and not a fully realized culture.我认为不如说是没有反文化在美国是说，任何反文化在美国只是一种亚文化而不是一个充分认识到文化。
Someone’s got an itch that needs scratchin’…某人的得到一痒，需要scratchin ' … …
Do these pathetic and desperately misguided people have names?这些可怜和拼命误导人有名字呢？ Or are you painting a very simplistic picture of people you don’t really KNOW?或者是你画一个非常简单的图片的人，你真的不知道？ Look at the condescending attitude that results in the follow-up posts when you make caricatures out of people.看看在傲慢态度的结果，在后续的职位当您作出的漫画出来的人。 I agree with your “affirmative” statements about the gospel being counter-cultural; the statements you make about christians who get tattoos and piercings would make me sneer at them on the street, if I weren’t one of them.我同意你的“肯定”的陈述，福音被反文化;报表，使您对基督徒谁得到刺青和穿透会令我嗤之以鼻，他们在街上，如果我不是其中之一。 I think you need to take a look at what you are breeding in people’s hearts, read the posts after you write these things, and ask if you are really bringing truth to these issues, or are you helping these posters feel superior to others simply because they have evolved enough to recognize the futility in other people’s lives.我认为你需要考虑一下你所选育了老百姓的心坎上，宣读了职位后，你写这些东西，并要求如果你是真的把真相这些问题，或者您帮助这些海报，觉得优于其他只是因为他们已演变足以识别是徒劳的，在其他人的生命。 Really, Mark, “christian punks” are your brothers and sisters in christ, and if anyone has made an idol out of appearance they should be addressed individually and privately; rather than painting them with a broad brush.说真的，马克， “基督教punks ”是您的兄弟姐妹在基督里，如果有人作出了偶像出来的外观，他们应该解决个体;而非绘画，他们具有广泛一刀切。 If your “friends” here, on this blog, walked into the salvage yard church, what would their assumptions be, besides WRONG?如果您的“朋友”在这里，就这个博客，走进打捞码教会的话，他们的假设，除了错了吗？
PS Drinking is a completely different issue.保安局常任秘书长饮用水是一个完全不同的问题。
TJ TJ音乐
Hmmm…I can hardly be blamed if someone desides to air their angst against punkers. hmmm … …我难以归咎于如果有人desides空气他们的焦虑对punkers 。 Only one person actually said anything that much against punkers.只有一个人，其实说的事，反对punkers 。 This blog has lots of readers and we don’t all agree.此博客有很多的读者和我们不都同意。 I don’t censor people and if you want to address him directly, please do so.我不检查员人民和如果您想要的地址，他直接，请这样做。 I’m not sure why you’re upset at me.我不知道您为什么要破坏在我。
If you read my post, you’ll notice that I never say anything negative about anyone.如果您阅读我的职务，您会发现我从来没有说任何负面的任何人。 My point wasn’t to make fun of people who do counter-cultural things any more than I want to make fun of people who don’t.我的意思是不作乐趣的人谁做反文化的东西，任何比我更想作的乐趣的人谁不。 My point is that these things are pretty irrelevant when it comes to the heart of the Gospel, which is the actually counter-cultural thing.我的意思是，这些东西是漂亮无关，当谈到的心脏福音，这是实际上是反文化的事情。 The whole point of this post wasn’t to say “hey look at punks–gee they are silly.” It is to challenge many new churches that are starting up and say “hey, you are definitely exploring some edgier things stylistically, but make sure you focus on what makes us truly distinctive.”整个点，这个职位是不是说“嘿看看punks -张基他们是愚蠢的。 ”这是挑战了许多新的教堂，开始了和说： “喂，你是绝对探索一些edgier的东西风格，但使相信你的重点是什么，使我们真正独特的“ 。
I have really no issue whatsoever with punkers, and it wasn’t even punkers I was thinking of.我真的没有问题，与punkers ，它甚至没有punkers我的思想。 If I was picking on anyone it is people in the emerging church, who upon finding new freedom decide to push boundaries.如果我是采摘对任何人，这是人在新兴的教会，谁后，寻找新的自由决定推动的界限。 Unfortunately, they often tie their experience of Church to their new freedoms.不幸的是，他们往往配合他们的经验，教会他们新的自由。 I just want to challenge that a bit.我只是想挑战一下。
If I were to walk into the salvage yard church, I think I would probably have the same reaction I have to just about any church like it: “The decorations are different, the structure is the same.” That’s not an indictment of the people that go there, because I understand there are groups of people in the church that are trying to do something different, and that’s fine.如果我要走进打捞码教会，我想可能有相同的反应，我只是对任何教会一样，它说： “装饰是不同的，结构是相同的。 ”这不是一起诉人民群众说，去那里，因为据我所知，有群体的人在教会正试图做一些不同的，这很好。 I just don’t think the level of rethinking present is really high enough to do anything.我只是不认为水平重新思考目前实在是不够高，做任何事情。 BTW, painting people with a broad brush might include putting the word friends in quotes and making really blanket statements about commentators on other people’s blogs.的BTW ，绘画的人具有广泛刷可能包括把字的朋友，报价和决策真的毯的陈述，评论家对别人的Blog 。
Mark, I whole-heartedly agree with the point you are making.马克，我衷心同意这一点你是决策。 I just wonder how many conversations you have had with people who embrace edgier styles of music with no clear reason for doing so; or people who think getting a tattoo is world shaking; or people who get pierced as an expression of their liberty?我只是想知道有多少会话您曾经与人谁的怀抱edgier风格的音乐没有明确这样做的理由;或谁的人认为越来越纹身是世界摇头;或人谁得到戳穿了作为一个表达他们的自由呢？ The reasons you give for these people is what comes off as condescending, how can we not stand aside and think “these people” are ridiculous, because if they do exist, they are ridiculous.原因你给这些人是什么小康作为condescending ，我们又怎能不站在一旁，并认为“这些人”是荒谬的，因为如果他们确实存在，他们是荒谬的。 The problem is now discernment, how do you separate the “posers” from the sincere ones; I guess you have to talk to each one, or let each person who fits the appearance fend for themselves… and the whole thing is, we never had to go down this road in the first place.问题是现在鉴别力，你怎么分开“ posers ”从真诚的;我猜你要互相交谈，或让每个人都适合谁的外观照顾自己… …和整个事情是，我们从未有过走上这条路摆在首位。 What you said is true for everyone, it could have been said positively and we would have understood.你说的是真正的大家，它可以说已积极和我们会理解的。 When you simplify the reasons why people make certain decisions it is hard not to pass judgement.当您简化的原因，人们作出某些决定，这是很难不通过的判断。 Obviously, I was personally offended by your entry, I thought, is this what Mark thinks of me?显然，我个人冒犯了您的条目，我以为，这是马克思我吗？ I waited and yes, prayed for years before getting my nose rings, I think nose rings are just pretty, but I waited to see where God would be calling me, I never wanted my appearance to be a roadblock. i等待的话，祈祷年前我的鼻子戒指，我觉得鼻子戒指只是漂亮，但我等待，看看那里的上帝会致电我，我从来没有想我的外表是一个路障。 People’s reasons for doing things are sometimes more complex than are convenient for us to write about in a short entry.人们的理由，做事有时要复杂得多，是方便我们写在短期内入境。 The “christian punk” idea was from the end of your green day post; and finally, I know many people who fit your description in appearance, but personally, I do not know anyone who doesn’t recognize first that it is the gospel message that goes against the grain. “基督教朋克”的构想是从去年底您的Green Day的员额;最后，我知道很多人谁适合您的描述在外观上，但我个人来说，我不知道谁不承认第一，这是福音讯息这违背了粮食。 No hard feelings?没有辛勤的感情呢？
TJ TJ音乐
TJ, TJ音乐，
I’m sorry if I sound condescending.我很抱歉，如果我健全的condescending 。 I think you hear me saying something completely other than what I am saying.我想你听到我说的东西完全以外的其他我的意思。 I don’t think that anyone who gets a tatoo or drinks or whatever (I gave these sorts of descriptions arbitrarily anyhow) is silly at all, nor should we try to discern why they have a tattoo or drink or are pierced.我不认为任何人谁得到的纹身或饮料或什么（我给这些各种各样的说明任意无论如何）是愚蠢的一切，我们也不应该尝试看出，为什么他们有一个纹身或饮料，或戳穿。 My point is that these things are irrelevant to the counter-cultural nature of the Gospel.我的意思是，这些东西是不相干的反文化性质的福音。 In all sincerity, I don’t think any less of anyone who is piereced (like my brother) or tatooed (like my father or all of my brothers) or who smokes (like everyone in my family except me and my father) or drinks (like me).在所有的诚意，我不认为任何人少，谁是piereced （如我的兄弟）或tatooed （像我父亲或我所有的兄弟） ，或谁抽烟（如每个人都在我的家人，除了我和我的父亲）或饮品（和我一样） 。 These things are sincerely irrelevant to me.这些东西是真诚地向我无关。 What bothers me–is when Christians make cultural expressions of counter-culture part of their Christian expression of being part of the Kingdom of God.是什么困扰我-是，当基督徒，使文化表现形式的反文化的一部分，他们的基督教表达的一部分，上帝的王国。 And this happens.和这种情况。 I don’t think there is anything condescending whatsoever to ask people who, when experiencing freedom to explore things unconventional, to not equate that to the freedom and edginess that is found in the Kingdom of God.我不认为有什么是condescending什么要问的人谁，当经历自由探索非传统的东西，不等于说，以自由和edginess是发现在上帝的王国之中。 No hard feelings.没有辛勤的感受。
Just wanted to update:只是想更新：
TJ and I are friends. TJ音乐和我的朋友。 Blogging sometimes makes it easy for two people to miscommunicate with each other.博客，有时更容易被两个人，以miscommunicate与对方。 We’ve continued an email dialogue and have worked things out.我们已经持续一个电子邮件的对话和工作的事情。 I think the point that I was trying to make is a good one, but the way I made it wasn’t thought out very well and it is easy to see why a punk or the friend of a punk would get a bit irked.我觉得这一点我是努力使是一个很好的一个，但我作出这是没有想过出得很好，这是不难看出为什么一朋克或朋友一个朋克会得到一点得罪。 It is in situations like this that I am reminded that online dialogue is not the same as a community.这是在这种情况下这一点令我想起网上的对话是不一样的社区。 My friendship wth TJ in the real world is perhaps the only reason we are able to come to an understanding at all.我的友谊生长的TJ在现实世界中可能是唯一的理由，我们可以来了解所有。 It is very difficult to know someone’s heart without really knowing them.这是很难知道某人的心没有真正了解他们。
What could be more counter culture then totaly surrendering your will and individuality to a slave god?有什么可以更反文化，然后totaly交出你的意志和个性的奴隶是神吗？
I’m not sure what point you’re making.我不知道什么时候您决策。
A lot of American counter culture is a reflection of the individual to establish himself as seperate from the social norms.了大量的美国反文化是反映了个别建立自己独立的社会规范。 Christianity is the opposite: the surrender of one’s will and individuality to another’s (God’s) will.基督教是相反的：交出一份的意志和个性，到另一个的（上帝的） 。 In other words, counter culture seeks to reflect individuality, Christianity seeks the conforming of one’s will to a master.在其他换言之，反文化，旨在反映个性，基督教寻求符合一个人的意愿，硕士。
Yep, couldn?t agree more. yep ，无法？吨同意。 Trouble is we desire to be different but embrace the same methods of getting there that others have.麻烦的是我们的愿望有所不同，但怀抱同样的方法获得有其他人。 We dress different, listen to edger music, claim to reject standard Christian values, we say “I?m not being like them”.我们不同的着装，听音乐边，声称拒绝接受的标准基督教的价值观，我们说： “我？米不是和他们一样” 。 But we haven?t got to the heart of it.但我们的避难所？吨到了心脏。 That is “what is it to be a disciple of Jesus?”这是“什么是这是一个耶稣的门徒” ？
That?s what make?s us different.这有何什么作出有何我们不同。 Early Christians stood out not because of their tattoos but because their actions went counter to the culture, in obedience to Christ?s teachings.早期的基督徒站出来，并不是因为他们的刺青，而是因为他们的行动去对付，以文化，在服从基督有何教诲。 Some of this count-culture Christianity proves people have missed the point.一些本计数的文化，基督教，证明人错过了一点。 How many of your neighbors, co-workers, fellow students do we really get to know and engage with the gospel?您有多少邻居，合作，工人，同学，我们是否真的去了解和从事与福音？ Maybe we can take our tattoo artist out for coffee?也许我们可以考虑我们的纹身艺术家为咖啡？
So tell me, why would you have a public blog, then alter comments posted by people?因此，请你告诉我，为什么你有一个公共博客，然后改变的评论张贴的人呢？ Are Christians incapable of dialogue with people who think differntly them them?是基督徒无法与人对话，谁认为differntly他们他们呢？ The previous comments attributed to me are not mine!先前的评论是由于我没有地雷！
This one is:”What could be more counter culture then totaly surrendering your will and individuality to a slave god?” but you now attribute it to yourself!这个人是： “有什么可以更反文化，然后totaly交出你的意志和个性的奴隶是神吗？ ” ，但您现在的属性，它给您自己！
Just another example of a close minded people.只是另一个例子密切志同道合的人士。
Once again I ask, why host a public blog then alter people’s comments.我再一次问，为什么东道国公共博客，然后改变人的意见。 It is not logical!它是不符合逻辑！
You could have responded that you disagree, instead you chaange my reply to your post.你可以有回应时表示，你不同意，而不是你chaange我的答复到您的帖子。 The word that comes to mind is DECEPTION!这个词来想到的是欺骗！
Sorry for the last post, been a long night.对不起，过去后，一直是漫漫长夜。 The way your blog formats the previous bloger’s infor appears at the top, or in the same box as the current post.方式您的博客格式前bloger的信息出现在顶端，或在同一框中由于目前的职位。 I stand corrected.我站在纠正。
I’m sorry that the way things are posted isn’t clear.我很抱歉，该办法的事情，张贴并不明确。 Your reaction was pretty strong, I must say.您的反应是相当强烈，我必须说。 You seem to be passionate about being free to explore truth without any sort of confines or limitations.你似乎是激情正在自由探索真理，没有任何形式的局限或限制。 Would it be safe to say that you think you are more free than people who follow the Christian path?它是安全的说，你以为你是更自由，比人谁按照基督教的路径？
Where I’m at spiritually is a natural progression from my days as a Christian.如果我在精神上是一个很自然的进展，从我的天，身为基督徒。 After studying the Bible in Greek and Hebrew my beliefs changed after seeing the scriptures in the earlier languages.经过研究圣经，在希腊和希伯来语我的信仰改变后，看到经文在先前的语文。 I saw big differences in the way the greek NT reads as opposed to the translations we have in english.我看到大的差异的方式，希腊新台币内容为反对把翻译我们在英语。 I then went on to read the Nag Hamadi texts, etc and my views changed.然后我接着就阅读中NAG哈马迪文本，等我的看法改变。 This is a very, very abbreviated answer.这是一个非常，非常的缩写答案。 I respect any true seeker of truth as long as they accept other peoples right to honestly seek truth themselves.我尊重任何真正的导引头的真理，只要他们接受其他民族的权利，诚实，实事求是。
knightofpan- knightofpan -
Where has your path of seeking truth taken you?如果你的路径，实事求是，采取了你呢？ Do you as if it has been worthwhile?你好像它已值得？
(I’m not trying to bait you, I’m just curious. It’sa question I ask of anyone who has made a conscious decision to leave Christianity). （我不是要你诱饵，我只是好奇。这问题我想请问的人谁作出了有意识的决定离开基督教） 。
(feel free to email me, if you’d like: （欢迎随时以电子邮件我，如果您想要： blorge@gmail.com ) ）